For The Record - The rule-based scheduling suite

[ASiDiE]

I just wanted to say thanks for making the plug-in work for the TV engine. I just have a couple of suggestions and then a bug report.

Is there a reason why we can't grab channels and EPG guide data from the TV DB? Right now, I have no way of getting my DVB channel guide into the TV scheduler. My EPG guide data for my sat only comes from one place, the stream of the Sat. I set it up and download it, and it goes right into the DB.

I also have analog channels, and it's pretty easy to copy over the tvguide.xml, but I don't think I should have to do this both in the TV server and then in the TV scheduler also.

I am hoping in the future, we can grab all channels, and guide data from the TV db into the TV scheduler db. This way we don't have to Link or map channels at all. They scheduler will know what channel you want to record because it's the same data in the TV db.

So right now, I am just testing my analog channels. I set up like 10 shows and used the dll's to bring them over to the TV server. This worked great, but it did not bring over any of my PRE and Post Times. If I look in the SQL database, I see 0's for everything. It also recorded a couple shows and they starts right around 00 and ended at 30.

I also noticed that the UP and Down arrows for the Per and post times do not work... so I check the box and put in 00:02 for pre time by hand. Maybe these just need to be fixed.

I will keep testing and let you know what I find... but so far GREAT WORK!!!!!!

[Midget]

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

[..."Object reference not set to an instance of an object" error message...]
Does TvScheduler's management console give this error, or the one from TVE3? Did you already have some recordings that were done using TvScheduler's TVE3 plugin?

The error was from TvScheduler's management console. But you are right, there weren't any recordings yet done using TvScheduler. Now, after some recordings, the console shows the recordings without error messages. Maybe you should intercept the error condition and show up a meaningful message (or no message at all )

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

Thanks for all the suggestions, I will definately look at these things and some are already possible, but have no GUI yet (like the channel ordering). Only option 4 I cannot do, since TvScheduler itself has no idea what is conflicting or not. So the conflict management will need to be done in the program using TvScheduler, since it's only then that you know how many recording cards are available.

Thank you for your work
For conflict management you are right with tv cards argument. But I think anyway it could be useful to scan for overlapping recordings and identify them with an icon (or color or whatever). In this way the user could know which recording may need a modification of the priority parameter. In fact if a scheduled recording doesn't overlap with others I will get recorded in every case independently of the priority parameter.


Bye,
Midget

[dvdfreak]

Originally Posted by ASiDiE

I just wanted to say thanks for making the plug-in work for the TV engine. I just have a couple of suggestions and then a bug report.

Is there a reason why we can't grab channels and EPG guide data from the TV DB? Right now, I have no way of getting my DVB channel guide into the TV scheduler. My EPG guide data for my sat only comes from one place, the stream of the Sat. I set it up and download it, and it goes right into the DB.

I also have analog channels, and it's pretty easy to copy over the tvguide.xml, but I don't think I should have to do this both in the TV server and then in the TV scheduler also.

Agreed. But this should not be fixed by me reading the TVE3 database, it should be fixed by the TVE3 EPG-grabber feeding the data to TvScheduler (should be a very easy change to TVE3 by the way).

I know from a user's point of view you just want this to work, and technically it would be quite possible what you suggest. But it's not the proper way to go, and I feel very strongly about moving forward in a proper way. TvScheduler has been built from the ground up to work in a certain way, has a pretty thought-through design and I want to keep it that way.

And while this means I'm not going to go down the road of quickly adding a bunch of features ad-hoc, look at it this way: what you do get is proving to be stable and has had little bugs so far. Quality is number one, features is a close second Services like TvScheduler run day and night, are responsible for recording your programs. So 100% robustness is a must

Anyway, long (boring) story to tell you that, YES, this is possible, but I'd like to talk to the MP devs about this so we could add support for using TvScheduler to TVE3.

Originally Posted by ASiDiE

I am hoping in the future, we can grab all channels, and guide data from the TV db into the TV scheduler db. This way we don't have to Link or map channels at all. They scheduler will know what channel you want to record because it's the same data in the TV db.

Again I agree, the integration should be seamless and is indeed what we all should be aiming for. The plugin I wrote should go away completely IMHO, it's only a temporary kludge to get some recording done

Originally Posted by ASiDiE

So right now, I am just testing my analog channels. I set up like 10 shows and used the dll's to bring them over to the TV server. This worked great, but it did not bring over any of my PRE and Post Times. If I look in the SQL database, I see 0's for everything. It also recorded a couple shows and they starts right around 00 and ended at 30.

I also noticed that the UP and Down arrows for the Per and post times do not work... so I check the box and put in 00:02 for pre time by hand. Maybe these just need to be fixed.

The up and down arrows only work if you first click on a number in the control. I'm sorry they work that way, but you'll need to take this up with Microsoft since these are standard WinForms controls

Anyway, pre- and post-recording do work, but you misinterpreted the control values. The values are minutes/seconds and not hours/minutes, so you actually entered a pre-recording of 2 seconds and not 2 minutes. That's why these are lost in the synchronization (TVE3 only supports minutes, no seconds).

Originally Posted by ASiDiE

I will keep testing and let you know what I find... but so far GREAT WORK!!!!!!

Thanks!

----

Originally Posted by Midget

The error was from TvScheduler's management console. But you are right, there weren't any recordings yet done using TvScheduler. Now, after some recordings, the console shows the recordings without error messages. Maybe you should intercept the error condition and show up a meaningful message (or no message at all )

It's fixed now, I assume you were clicking on of the Open/Delete buttons? That's what gave me the error when no recordings were available.

Originally Posted by Midget

For conflict management you are right with tv cards argument. But I think anyway it could be useful to scan for overlapping recordings and identify them with an icon (or color or whatever). In this way the user could know which recording may need a modification of the priority parameter. In fact if a scheduled recording doesn't overlap with others I will get recorded in every case independently of the priority parameter.

Conflict management will be one of the more interesting things to look at.

I was thinking of adding a GetAlternativeShowings() method so for conflict management you could get a list of all other times a program is showing, and that way avoid a conflict by simply recording the repeat instead.

In the mean time I looked at TVE3's scheduling code and unless I overlooked it, it appears it currently does not look at the priority setting of a schedule Am I mistaken, and if not, perhaps this is something that can be fixed in TVE3?

[tourettes]

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

Agreed. But this should not be fixed by me reading the TVE3 database, it should be fixed by the TVE3 EPG-grabber feeding the data to TvScheduler (should be a very easy change to TVE3 by the way).

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that none of the MP devs like the idea that we have to keep the EPG data twice. Just imageing how much SQL server is going to need memory when 600 channel database is stored in different places. For example conflict manager needs all the speed up that it can get (and most likely 100MB SQL cache is not enough for two huge DB tables).

Originally Posted by Midget

In the mean time I looked at TVE3's scheduling code and unless I overlooked it, it appears it currently does not look at the priority setting of a schedule Am I mistaken, and if not, perhaps this is something that can be fixed in TVE3?

Yep, priorities aren't currently implemented.

[dvdfreak]

Originally Posted by tourettes

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that none of the MP devs like the idea that we have to keep the EPG data twice. Just imageing how much SQL server is going to need memory when 600 channel database is stored in different places. For example conflict manager needs all the speed up that it can get (and most likely 100MB SQL cache is not enough for two huge DB tables).

Who is talking about keeping the data twice?

If TvScheduler contains the guide data, why keep it in the TVE3 database at all? That's what I am suggesting we should aim for.

Originally Posted by tourettes

Yep, priorities aren't currently implemented.

Is this on the list of things to fix?

[tourettes]

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

Who is talking about keeping the data twice?

If TvScheduler contains the guide data, why keep it in the TVE3 database at all? That's what I am suggesting we should aim for.

That would mean that the TvScheduler must be integrated to the TVE3 itself.

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

Is this on the list of things to fix?

At some point yes, but currently there are more serious bugs to be fixed.

[dvdfreak]

Originally Posted by tourettes

That would mean that the TvScheduler must be integrated to the TVE3 itself.

Well, basically, yes. A symbiosis so to speak

I don't know how open the MP devs are to this idea, but I'm certainly open to talk about how this could be accomplished.

[The_Stig]

dvdfreak, i guess we are getting to the discussion we already had now again. Your TVScheduler would mean a huge change to current TVEngine. And with huge changes there are most likely other bugs comming in with it.

So I understand both sides of the argumentations:

You say: I made a lot of work and I want to let it work this way because thats the best way in your eyes regarding the overall concept.

Devs say: That is too dangerous because it *could* break a lot of other stuff. Lets find a way to integrate/test this new stuff without making such big changes.

So I hope we all find a way. To be honest, seeing how hard we - as a team - worked and still work on bug hunting the last months I tend to see it the devs way too. This beneath the bughunting reason for a very practical reason: You say, it wouldnt be a problem/much work to use the TVE3-DB, so from a user point of view I say: Lets do it then :-)

Regards

The Stig

BTW: Did you provide the code somewhere? Have i overlooked it?

[Midget]

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

It's fixed now, I assume you were clicking on of the Open/Delete buttons? That's what gave me the error when no recordings were available.

Yes, sorry the lack of details.

Originally Posted by dvdfreak

I was thinking of adding a GetAlternativeShowings() method so for conflict management you could get a list of all other times a program is showing, and that way avoid a conflict by simply recording the repeat instead.

If I look at my tv guide this method will result pretty useless. I currently receive only FTA analog channels and repeat is very uncommon. In DVB-T there are almost the same channels and scheduling.
In satellite pay-tv (SKY) repetition is a common way, but here (in Italy) I don't have found a CAM interface that let me use a legal SKY subscription on the PC. (any help is appreciated )

Originally Posted by tourettes

At some point yes, but currently there are more serious bugs to be fixed.

I've to disagree... TvServer-TvClient is a TV recording platform: tv guide, scheduling, conflict handling, priorities handling are all key features. Supporting or fixing the XYZ tv card, installer, burning, radio, IMDB, etc. is second stage.


Bye,
Midget

[dvdfreak]

Originally Posted by The_Stig

dvdfreak, i guess we are getting to the discussion we already had now again. Your TVScheduler would mean a huge change to current TVEngine. And with huge changes there are most likely other bugs comming in with it.

So I understand both sides of the argumentations:

You say: I made a lot of work and I want to let it work this way because thats the best way in your eyes regarding the overall concept.

Devs say: That is too dangerous because it *could* break a lot of other stuff. Lets find a way to integrate/test this new stuff without making such big changes.

Sure, understandable. But sometimes you have to break some eggs to make an omelet

The basic question is this: does TvScheduler offer a big enough improvement to do some real rework in TVE3?

If it's not considered to be worthwhile, I can deal with that, let's move on then. If it is considered worthwhile, let's talk about the symbiosis I propose.

Originally Posted by The_Stig

So I hope we all find a way. To be honest, seeing how hard we - as a team - worked and still work on bug hunting the last months I tend to see it the devs way too. This beneath the bughunting reason for a very practical reason: You say, it wouldnt be a problem/much work to use the TVE3-DB, so from a user point of view I say: Lets do it then :-)

Hehe TvScheduler's guide data is far more detailed as the one kept in TVE3, so I can't use its database even if I wanted to. All I could do is try and duplicate the data (but then still, useful information would be missing), but as tourettes pointed out, it would be rather stupid in the long run to keep all data in two databases.

I consider the plugin I provided really as a temporary tool, to test TvScheduler further, to make it actually do something practical.

The fear of breaking something is understandable, but I think noone is suggesting this should be part of next week's release. Let's branch of the code, change things, and then when things are stable again we can merge this back into the trunk. Hey, it may even turn out to be much less of a hassle than is feared

Originally Posted by The_Stig

BTW: Did you provide the code somewhere? Have i overlooked it?

Nope, not yet, I'll try to pop on to IRC later today, perhaps some devs are online then too...