dual audio channel a.k.a. SAP doesn't work

[Fingerswinger]

hi

i live in switzerland, but the following problem occurs in all PAL countries in europe as far as i know.
the problem is this:
when watching a tv program with two different audio channels (with different languages) i am not able to switch between these channels by pressing "A".

i'm not sure if it's exactly the same system as SAP in the U.S.
in europe it works like this (PAL countries, with analog TV):
most stations send normal stereo audio using two channels. when a station wants to send for example a movie with the original english soundtrack AND the translated german soundtrack they use one channel for english (which is then mono sound) and one for german (also mono of course). there is some type of hint in the TV signal that shows if the transmitted audio is mono (only one channel), stereo (two channels with stereo signal) or dual language (two channels with different languages, technically the same as stereo).

now i know from an older hauppauge software-capturecard i have, that the capture driver automatically switches audio to language 1 when tuned to a station with dual language channels. i have a special tool (from hauppauge) to "force" the other language (this isn't necessary when using hauppauges own TV-application).

i guess with the hardware-capture card (pvr 500 mce) it's the same issue. when switching channels i never hear the second language.

to make things worse (or easier?): because of the nature of timeshifting or recordings it's not enough to be able to choose the audio channel when watching live-tv. you also need to be able to switch languages of recorded stuff. that means mediaportal should ALWAYS record both channels (force the driver to record both) and then let the user choose when playing back.

really comfortable (but not really necessary for the beginning) would be if mediaportal knew about the nature of the recorded audio channels (from the PAL signal) and as soon as a dual-language-recording is played, switches to language 1 and displays a hint, that a second language is available (thats the way normal TV-sets do it).


i put this under bugs, because obviously that functionality is there in mediaportal ("A" is for switching audio channels) but doesn't work (at least in europe).

would be really awesome if this would work - so i could watch the simpsons the way they're meant to sound

even without this working: mediaportal is awesome! thanks and keep it up!

fingerswinger


Area: Capture Card / Driver / Mediaportal Program (i can't tell)
MP Version: 0.2.0 rc2
Skin: blue two
Windows Version: Win XP Professional SP2
CPU Type: AMD 64 3000+
Memory: 512 MB (2 x 256 MB DDR-DIMM) PC-3200
Motherboard Chipset: ASUS A8V-E SE (Chipset: VIA K8T890 VIA VT8237R)
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce 6200 (64 MB onboard, max 256 MB shared)
Video Card Driver: NVIDIA ForceWare 84.21
Video Card Resolution: 1024x768
Video Render Type: VMR9
Video Codec Type & Version: Mpeg2Dec Filter
Audio Codec Type & Version: MPEG/AC3/DTS/LPCM Audio Decoder
TV Card: Analog PCI card, Hauppauge PVR 500 MCE
TV Card Type: Hardware MPEG encoder, analog, PAL
TV Card Driver: official hauppauge drivers, WinTV-PVR-150 driver version 20_35_23348
Optional Log: i didn't find anything suspicious

[dman_lfc]

Not a bug as the code is not there yet to implement it.

DMAN

[danfg]

I've sent a request for SAP support to the Public Development List, with a suggestion for implementation and pretty pictures. This was last Saturday.

As soon as I sent the request, I was informed it would be reviewed prior to publication. It hasn't shown up yet. Let's just hope they didn't silently ditch the idea and not bothered to inform me.

[mzemina]

There is currently a code freeze so I doubt it would show up in the 0.2.0 release. The developers are busy fixing bugs.

BTW - Do you have a link to your submission?

Mike

[danfg]

Originally Posted by mzemina

BTW - Do you have a link to your submission?

No, I don't remember getting any links for submission. It hasn't been published and I haven't been contacted either so I have no idea what to expect.

My only hope is that it get's implemented someday or in a todo list somewhere, doesn't have to be ready for 0.2.0.

[danfg]

Hi guys, the SAP support initiative is on the Public Developer's List, go there and check it out!

Funny thing is that I submitted some great images for it, illustrating the concept! I put a lot of work and thought into them. Were they removed/lost prior to publication? Who should I talk to about this?

[danfg]

The SAP support page now has illustrations showing off how the feature should be done in MP!



Thanks to mzemina for pulling strings and setting up the pictures! Go check it out, guys!

[Fingerswinger]

nice!

but on the SAP support page at point 5 i see a problem:

here in switzerland (and everywhere else in europe i think) the SAP feature isn't a feature of the channel but of the broadcasting. most movies are broadcast with normal stereo sound. only some are broadcast with two different languages (it is also not called SAP, as far as my knowledge goes). and correct info about the audio mode is rarely available from online guides (webepg / xmltv).

so it would be more flexible if always both audio-channels / languages would be recorded. that way you could switch languages while watching the recording. this would then be just as comfortable / flexible as watching live tv. the other way round you would "loose" the opportunity to switch languages later (have to decide in advance).

greets

[danfg]

Hi Fingerswinger, thanks for your input!

Originally Posted by Fingerswinger

here in switzerland (and everywhere else in europe i think) the SAP feature isn't a feature of the channel but of the broadcasting. most movies are broadcast with normal stereo sound. only some are broadcast with two different languages

I agree, SAP is only broadcast on some programs or shows. I think that assigning "SAPability" to the whole channel isn't such a big problem though, specially considering how it seems more troublesome to inform whether certain shows have SAP individually or not.

Originally Posted by Fingerswinger

(it is also not called SAP, as far as my knowledge goes). and correct info about the audio mode is rarely available from online guides (webepg / xmltv).

What is it called? What would you like it to be called, maybe we can find some name for it that people can recognize anywhere. I'm not a big fan of acronyms, but I was under the impression that SAP was the standard name for this feature. I guess I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Fingerswinger

so it would be more flexible if always both audio-channels / languages would be recorded.

That would certainly be great! I'm not aware of the technical challenges envolved, but I'm not sure if recording multiple audio streams can be done (hell, I'm not even sure if tv cards can tune into SAP!). Your idea could be an extra option though: 3 Record both audio streams

Good stuff, keep 'em coming!

[Fingerswinger]

What is it called? What would you like it to be called, maybe we can find some name for it that people can recognize anywhere.

in german it's called zweikanalton, which i would translate to something like dual channel audio.
on TV remotes it is often labeled I / II.

but maybe it isn't necessary to choose one name to fit all: as the whole interface is translated to different languages anyway, you could call the feature SAP in us-english, Zweikanalton in german, son bicanal in french and so on...

what i meant with the feature being named different in europe is that it may use a different technique.

I'm not aware of the technical challenges envolved, but I'm not sure if recording multiple audio streams can be done (hell, I'm not even sure if tv cards can tune into SAP!). Your idea could be an extra option though: 3 Record both audio streams

again i can only speak for the situation in switzerland (and probably large parts of europe): it IS possible.
in my normal work-pc i have a cheap capture card (no mpeg encoder) from hauppauge. when i watch a broadcasting with two different audio channels using DScaler, i can switch through audio modes (stereo, mono, lang1, lang2). stereo gives me one language in the left channel AND the other language in the right channel. so i can LISTEN to both of them at the same time.
when i want to RECORD a movie with both languages it's a bit tricky. either the software or the driver or the capture card switches to the first language, disabling the second one. there is a tool from hauppauge.de that allows to set the audio channel to use (works only with WIN-TV PCI series). so i have to do this: 1. tune station with dscaler then close dscaler 2. start the tool from hauppauge and select stereo (it remains active in the system tray) 3. use virtualdub to capture.

now most people use more advanced capture cards like the PVR series from hauppauge. but i am sure that all of these cards are able to record both languages because they're able to record normal stereo broadcastings (it's exactly the same system). the tricky part seems to be preventing the driver / capture card / whatever to interfere and switch to one language.

i don't know what the situation is with DVB cards or HDTV tough...

greets,
fingerswinger