Why I think I'm switching back to Media Center

[poppabk]

Just wanted to add from my experience as a new user. My HTPC is just my desktop computer with a PVR 150 thrown into it, with XP and stable 0.2.2 installed. I am using my old ATI remote wonder to control it. Honestly I found installing and getting MP up and running as a PVR to be relatively simple. I still have some issues with performance of menus but I accept this as my computer is relatively underpowered. I am based in the US and use the yahoo xmltv generator form the GB-PVR forums to get my EPG and my channels are automatically ordered how I want them, not sure how or why but it worked without any problems for me. My wife uses it also and is quite happy other than my awkward remore setup, but this is my fault for being cheap and using an old remote, sooner or later I will probably just shell out for an MCE remote, which has the buttons labeled more accurately (press info for info instead of press D for info!). I am not using a lot of plug-ins nor am I viewing videos generated outside of MP so a lot of my success may just be due to this. I have had problems with DVD navigation however, but I don't watch DVD's enough for this too have been a major issue for me.

[dmeglio]

I'd just like to respond to a couple of the replies...

sadly that wont even work with MCE flawlessly, because of the "structure" of the DVD-menus.
everyone loves to "tweak" their menu......

I'm not going to dispute that, because I don't know for sure. However, I personally have never had any major issues. Yes, there is the occasional glitch (which I also have on my standalone DVD player), but with MP I have some major issues. With my Simspons DVD, the screen got all pixelated (random colors, etc. it almost looked like what my digital cable does when it encounters some bad data over the line). Then, the DVD feature froze, as did MP as a whole. That's something I've yet to experience in MCE. Could it happen? I won't answer since I don't know. All I do know is DVDs that work fine in MCE and Media Player fail in MP.

the "main problem" is the core of MediaPortal. too much is handled inside the core.
so if you change something to fix bug A, this causes features X, Y, Z to break, or introduces 5 more new bugs.....
its like playing ::mikado::

I understand this when it comes to "bug fix 1 causes bugs 2 and 3" however, when you're in RC, I don't think I should see SVN comments like "MP now supports the startup parameter /windowed to force a windowed start" or "Add grabbing/storing the parental rating info from DVB-EPG" or "added DM140GINK driver for MSI Media Live and Hiper HMC-2K53A Barebones" each one may have only been 1 line of code, but they are *features* not bug fixes. By definition "Release Candidate" means "if nothing is broken, this is the final version." So there should be no new features at that point. They could introduce issues. Why not release 0.2.3 as 100% (well 99%) stable, THEN add these new features? I'm not saying they're bad features, just that they should wait until after 0.2.3 is released.

Yes it could be easier to setup, but having said that you can take it too far as Microsoft often do and treat the end-user as an idiot and assume what is best for them. I like being able to get to the MP setup and see how things are setup and working.

I hear you and 100% agree. However, why not deal with both sets of users? I think MP has the right idea, just bad execution. The MP config tool is great for pros, but the wizard should be better. Make the wizard better, but don't eliminate the config tool. I'm not talking about options like "hide XP balloon tooltips" but more like, why do I have to jump through hoops to setup an EPG where as in MCE, I just enter my zip code? Or, why can't it automatically detect I'm in the US and set my cards to an NTSC frame rate/resolution (I've spent countless hours wondering why the picture didn't work only to realize it's using a PAL resolution and frame rate). Why can't My Weather find the images for my zip code on weather.com automatically? Those kind of things.

as Infinity Loop hinted at, I am a bit sad that we have had quite a few posters reply with "I'm a programmer..." and not offer any help if they can.

Two things here. Just because you're a programmer doesn't mean you can help on MP. I know little/nothing about DirectX programming, and even less about DirectShow. So I can't add too much value to MP. Additionally, just because I'm a programmer doesn't mean I have tons of free time. I have a job, a girlfriend, etc. Plus, if we want to get right down to it, I did make a contribution to MP to make My News integrate with IE7's RSS API. I submitted it March 31st. To date, it still has not been added to the project and it just sits on SourceForge. So that kind of did not encourage me to do too much other work... If I thought I could add value to the MP team, I probably would donate some time.

I think MP has a lot of potential. When people say "open source is different" I disagree. Any piece of software, free or pay, is about user satisfaction. Whether you make money through selling software or donations, you still need happy customers. I think MP could become a product that is the best DVR software there is. Right now though, I think it tries to satisfy everyone by having every possible feature while ignoring the obvious stuff. Hopefully that'll change in the not too distant future.

[infinityloop]

Originally Posted by dmeglio

I understand this when it comes to "bug fix 1 causes bugs 2 and 3" however, when you're in RC, I don't think I should see SVN comments like "MP now supports the startup parameter /windowed to force a windowed start" or "Add grabbing/storing the parental rating info from DVB-EPG" or "added DM140GINK driver for MSI Media Live and Hiper HMC-2K53A Barebones" each one may have only been 1 line of code, but they are *features* not bug fixes. By definition "Release Candidate" means "if nothing is broken, this is the final version." So there should be no new features at that point. They could introduce issues. Why not release 0.2.3 as 100% (well 99%) stable, THEN add these new features? I'm not saying they're bad features, just that they should wait until after 0.2.3 is released.

again, please do not mix-up svn changes in TV-Server and MediaPortal svn.

yes there were new features added to MP svn during the freeze.
but again, read the svn log and compare the amount of fixes with new features.

some new features were added because they were on our internal wishlist for a looooong time, and then a developer suddenly poped up with a working solution. so it was added.

the only new feature which realy caused issues were the new skinengine features (which have been reverted).

sure, it would be "perfect" if no new feature would slip into svn during a freeze, but this is an opensource project, and this means that some things are different and have to be handlet differently.

means, you can not just revert svn if a new feature was added and then go and smack that developer against the wall.
that doesnt work.

we realy do our best, but we can always need helping hands

Originally Posted by dmeglio

I hear you and 100% agree. However, why not deal with both sets of users? I think MP has the right idea, just bad execution. The MP config tool is great for pros, but the wizard should be better. Make the wizard better, but don't eliminate the config tool. I'm not talking about options like "hide XP balloon tooltips" but more like, why do I have to jump through hoops to setup an EPG where as in MCE, I just enter my zip code? Or, why can't it automatically detect I'm in the US and set my cards to an NTSC frame rate/resolution (I've spent countless hours wondering why the picture didn't work only to realize it's using a PAL resolution and frame rate). Why can't My Weather find the images for my zip code on weather.com automatically? Those kind of things.

we would have many ideas about a simplified setup / wizard. but we simply do not have the manpower (yet).

again, every helping hand is highly appreciated

Originally Posted by dmeglio

Two things here. Just because you're a programmer doesn't mean you can help on MP. I know little/nothing about DirectX programming, and even less about DirectShow. So I can't add too much value to MP. Additionally, just because I'm a programmer doesn't mean I have tons of free time. I have a job, a girlfriend, etc. Plus, if we want to get right down to it, I did make a contribution to MP to make My News integrate with IE7's RSS API. I submitted it March 31st. To date, it still has not been added to the project and it just sits on SourceForge. So that kind of did not encourage me to do too much other work... If I thought I could add value to the MP team, I probably would donate some time.

I think MP has a lot of potential. When people say "open source is different" I disagree. Any piece of software, free or pay, is about user satisfaction. Whether you make money through selling software or donations, you still need happy customers. I think MP could become a product that is the best DVR software there is. Right now though, I think it tries to satisfy everyone by having every possible feature while ignoring the obvious stuff. Hopefully that'll change in the not too distant future.

note: MP is not mainly about directshow and directX. its is a .net framework (visual c#) application

i agree on the "trying to please virtualy everyone".
if it would be me, then we would have way less integrated plugins in MP.

SF patches: those are very nice, but most of the time they are build on outaded svn revisions, simply do not work, or do not fit into the project. sorting out those takes much time (i am sure that you understand that ). and again, we are a quite small team where the team members allready have their "tasks" to do. so there is very less time to check SF-patches. sometimes this means that some good stuff is lost.... thats sad, but cant be avoided

and opensource is different. why? because you do not get payed for what you do here.
so what you do has to be "fun" (or would i have 3000+ forum posts if i wouldnt like to contribute? )
you can not run an opensource project like a commercial one. be that strict and your team members will dissapear in an instand.

------------------------------------

if you want to switch to MCE, then i wont try to convince you to stick with MediaPortal. its your decision
if it is the better working solution for you then you should use it.

but one thing i want that everyone is aware about.
we know how we could do some things better. and we know what we are doing wrong.
but the major amount of "problems" is caused by one thing -> manpower

there is a very good reason why we call for help very frequently

Designers, developers, testers out there listen up!
we need you!

[dekkers]

In my opinion it's not fair to compare MCE with Mediaportal. As I-loop said: the MP-team is a handfull of volunteers and microsoft has $$$$ and problably a dozen of highly skilled programmers.

Besides that, MS is the creator of Direct-x, DirectShow, etc so their documentation will be more complete then the info on their website.If the MP-team has got millions to spend offcource it would be better. Every dev could make their living of MP. But the fact is, those millions aren't here! So again, it's not fair to compare MP-team with the world's largest software company.

On the other hand, it is anoying that some parts are in develop-status for almost a year now (for example: tv-server). I'm using the TV-server since it exists, have tried 2 DVB-C cards and still getting PMT errors. I'm NOT complaining about this. I know it will be fixed somewhere in the future, and hoping it will be the near future

The problem with all things within MP is the high level of technical dificult. Do you know someone who can write a DVB timeshift filter like Frodo? I don't, becouse those guys are very rare.

Maybe, it's wise for the MP-team to focus on the overall working of MP, and not adding new features untill everything is working for all users, but again, it's NOT our project.

For all users who has got problems wich needs to be fixed --> go, and be part of the test team, otherwise: be silent

[gxtracker]

Originally Posted by dekkers

For all users who has got problems wich needs to be fixed --> go, and be part of the test team, otherwise: be silent

I honestly disagree with that a little. I think if there is a problem with the application, usability or GUI, you should let us know about it. post in the forums. Be constructive and polite, but post it. Let us know how you feel about the application. Community response is the best way to gauge the progress of something. If we see a lot of post complaining about usability issues, then it becomes a wakeup call to everyone on the team. unfortunately with an open source project of this nature, bug fixes and patches take a back seat to new features and it shouldnt be that way at all. As great as this team is, I can completely understand wanting to implement a new feature instead of wrestling with a tough bug for hours on end.

Ideally, the core developers and designers of the MP team should exist to refine the basic product. That means bug fixes, patches, general usability and application stability. MP is modular by design. Plugins are there because we cant support every single feature and idea people have, and the minute we start streamlining features and "cutting the fat", the better.

My ideal MP would install nothing more then the bare essential: music, video, DVD, pictures, and TV. I shouldnt see 30 plugins installed by default when I open the plugin window in the configuration menu.

When we can provide a solid foundation for plugin developers, then MP retains its simplicity and stays customizable. That is my ultimate goal.

[dimakatchalo]

I recently switched from MP to SageTV and thought I'd add my 2 cents to this thread.

Firstly, why I switched to Sage (a commercial, and by no means cheap product):

* Stability - the app is very solid and does not crash
* Usability - it just feels "complete" all the necessary tools that you need for a prime-time living room HTPC are there. You dont get the feeling that a certain component/app is not finished and is missing some functions (or is just not working)
* Integration - when you run Sage, you don't need to constantly exit the application to make configuration changes, etc. After I installed the webserver and the XMLTV grabber and importer, I have no reason to exit the app at all - everything is integrated via the GUI and provide a seamless experience for the end user.
* Integration II - all the main tools you need in a HTPC are integrated into the core app - auto compression of TV shows to MP4, PSP, iPod, etc - there, a simple file browser - there. Insanely customisable menus & UI - there, extremely configurable comskip support (it took me literally 5 minutes to set it up and it worked flawlessly since, the only settings I had to tweak in comskip are ones to disable/cleanup the .log and .txt files). Main thing is that all those options are just there in the UI. I did have to install a couple of add-ons (SageMC is the most notable one) to get some of these features, but the installs were simple and required little tweaking outside of the Sage core app.
* Integration III - when I installed Sage I breathed a sigh of relief. Using Sage means I could uninstall SQL Express, SQL studio, Crunchie, DVRMSToolbox and a couple of other apps I cant think of straight away. My HTPC now has the bare minimum of software.
* Webserver - the sophistication and usability of the webserver is amazing. It completely mirrors everything function that Sage offers including streaming all you media (incl. live tv) via the webserver. It is amazing.
* Tv recordinds management - here in Oz we get EPG data from minnie.tuhs which includes first run data. The ability to record first-runs/re-runs was unknown to me with MP. Now it is invaluable. The whole recording logic/engine in Sage TV is far superior to MP. Having the ability to create recordings by keyword, advanced series options, not to mention the management & configurability of your recordings is very advanced and is superior to MP.
* Interface - looks professional and complete. I'm using the Foofaraw skin, which was developed by an MP user. Whilst Foofaraw is still unfinished in MP, Sage has this skin 100% complete - every screen, every menu, every UI element. It looks professional and just bloody good.
* Support - having requested assistance in the Sage forums several times on a number of issues (relatively minor) I have been able to receive assistance from numerous users within a couple of hours. I did not feel I could get that with MP when I had to seek help in these forums. Whether it is just me, I don't know, but that was my impression.

Overall, my decision to switch to Sage was driven by usability and stability. Sage is stable as a rock, records reliably and does not require me to leave the gui for "everyday" config changes. Sure major changes require me to restart the UI (or even the PC) but having had the app for 2 weeks now, I have configure it enough to not have to do that anymore. Whilst I'm very proficient with PCs, our HTPC replaced our TV, DVD player, VCR, stereo system, and photo repository. It is vital that whatever front end was running on the HTPC was reliable and seamless. I felt that Sage could provide that.

Also, I think that what sets Sage apart from MP is Sage's focus on usability. Majority of plugins, addons, etc are about improving the UI, usability or some other part of the app to make it easier for the end user to adopt to and use as a prime-time HTPC app. MP's focus on the other hand is on extending existing functions, introducing new ones, etc. MP is more of a "tweaker's" app than a "user's app".

So what do I miss about MP? There are a couple of things:

*MP has an integrated news reader and web-browser. Sage doesn't
* MP has a lot more skins to choose from, Sage has a couple of main ones but not nearly as many as MP. Sage does however have complete skins - all the elements are there, many of MPs current skins are incomplete.
* MP has a lot more plugins and those are being developed actively by users. Sage does not have as many by comparison, however the ones that are there are of very high standard and are mainly complete.
* MP's SVN structure for the core app and TVE3 is fantastic in terms of getting immediate bug fixes within a day or two. With Sage you often have to wait a week or two between Beta releases (I havent had much experience with Sage's Beta versions at this stage, so cannot comment on how good their bug fix response is).
* The default, "out of the box" UI in Sage is butt ugly and just plain hard to use. It is not logical or intuitive. It is certainly not designed for full-time HTPC use. I use sageMC, which is a completely different UI created by several advanced sage users, which is very similar to MCE/MP UIs (i.e. the UI is designed to be used on a TV, with a remote). Whilst I would still use sage without sagemc, I think MP's default UI is better.
* Sage's lack of audioscrobbler support. I used to love being able to just play one song in mp and have AS complete an entire playlit of similar songs for me. Sadly Sage does not have this feature.

I will still check on MP from time to time and I hope this app will go from strength to strength in the future. The devs are doing an awesome job in getting this app to prime-time status and I was extremely happy to see RC2 released (and stable, judging from the lack of response in the SVN forums).

Thanks guys.

p.s. I do realise that Sage is commercial software and not cheap at that. I realise that having this income gives them more optins and more freedom to make the app more complete, useable, stable, etc. I realise that MP does not have that luxury being open source. This post does not intend to directly compare the two apps, but rather provide some feedback as to what MP can do differently to have wider appeal and transcend the "tweaker" category it currently sits in.

I should also add, some of the best add-ons for Sage that I use (sagemc, xmltv importer, webserver, comskip monitor, dvd burner) are free, opensource and have been created by the sage user community.

[Efros]

With the demise of the zap2it service for the US I am seriously rethinking my MP usage, sadly.

[zag2me]

Maybe we should start a thread like "What do other media center apps have that media portal does not"

We could create a bullet list of all the features and advantages of other apps compared to media portal. Then the developers would have a clear list of things that should be improved in the next major point release.

Personally I still use Meedio as my main HTPC, but have Media-portal for the TV side of things.

[infinityloop]

Originally Posted by zag2me

Personally I still use Meedio as my main HTPC, (..)

just wait for what we are cooking in the background atm.

[SMa]

Originally Posted by iosub

Hi
I'm a programer for 23 Years.
I see MP like a big proyect that never ends... I think you should stop including new features. Stabilize on 0.2.3 version what is allready done, and shipit.

Them Stop for a couple of weeks, think about what should be the new Featurers and make then on 0.2.4.

MP will be much great that what is already if you keep standard metho on proyects.
1.- Create a list of this to do.
2.- Develop the code
3.- Test the code
4.- Ship the product

But NEVER NEVER add new features between 2 and 4

I must ²nd that. Stop creating new features and start focusing all energy on existing bugs.

Also about the new RC, why release a new RC while the old RC is (imo) way better? Just for some new features?
If someone tells me "this software is a RC", I expect the final version will be exactly the same, without the bugs. But what happens here... many bugs stay & new [buggy?] features are constantly added.


btw,
I hope to take part of Team MediaPortal soon, but currently I don't feel like my knowledge of C# is enough to be really helpfull.