MS MCE Transmitter not sending the same as MS MCE Remote (1 Viewer)

[Pastill]

This IR Server is the solution for my needs and I find it easy to handle and use.

I have the Microsoft MCE Remote with transiever, MediaPortal, XP sp2 and latest version of IR Server.
What I want to do, more than handle everything in MP, is to steer TV on/off, Amplifier on/off and Vol +/-. And that the Remote can act as a mouse when outside MP.

All that should be possible so the Translator has now learned the codes for TV and Amplifier.
And if I let the MCE Remote send the commands (first learned the codes) all works OK; TV on/off, Amp on/off …..
… But when I let the transmitter send the same codes ( trained/learned many times and press “Test”) nothing happens with the TV or Amplifier.
The transmitterbean lights up but no reaction with the TV/Amp equipment, no difference where I put the bean. But if I let the transmitter ( or a Remote) send any code configured in Translator Program tab to the MCE receiver it reacts OK, even from far away.

When reading in this Forum and Greenbutton forum /HIP and MceIR-development I haven’t so far found any for me workable solution.
I have used original driver, MCE rollup driver and MceIr driver (incl. restarts).
I have learned the MCE Remote the codes (working, see above) and then let the Remote learn the Translator (OK) and then let Transmitter send code (not working)
I have read about differences in Hz and transmitting speed. One example:
http://blog.mattgoyer.com/categories/mediaCenter/2004/12/14.html#a3856
(but this I can’t find in my PC since I don’t have MCE )
In Translator the Program tab is not accepting any code from my TV remote ( IR Remote tab accept), but if I first let MCE Remote learn the code ( works OK on TV, see above) then the Program tab will accept the code from MCE Remote. There is some differences in .ir –file learned from TV remote compared from MCE Remote. Amp remote has no problem learning Translator.


Where/how can I find a solution of this transmitter problem ?

 

[Pastill]

Was I to complicated when starting the thread ?
I try to show the result/codes to make it more clear what I mean.

I show the code in the xxx.ir file ( created when I learn IR Command in Transformer)

Here is what TV Remote send:
0000 006C 0011 0000 0015 005A 0015 0023 0028 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 030B
This of course is OK with the TV. It's ON.

Then I learn MCE Remote the code from TV Remote.
After that MCE Remote send:
0000 006C 0011 0000 0015 005A 0015 0023 0028 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 030B
As you can see it's almost the same code.
And it's OK with the TV. It's ON.


Then I let the transmitter send this code and learn the MCE Remote.
After that MCE Remote send :
0000 0072 0020 0000 0062 001F 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 001F 0010 0021 0031 001F 0010 0010 0010 000F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0010 000F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0010 000F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0021 000F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0010 001F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0010 000F 0012 000F 0021 001F 0012 000F 0010 0010 0021 000F 0012 001F 0010 0010 0021 001F 0021 09DA
This is not OK for the TV. Nothing happens.

The same will happen if I try all type of codes; on/off for TV and Amp. and Vol +/-


Why does the IR Server / transmitter change the codes ?
MCE Remote is handling the codes better = not changing the codes.
What are the differense between the MCE Remote and the IR Server / transmitter how they handle the codes?


It's no use with IR Server if it's not the learned codes that are transmitted.


(I also have a ProntoNeo and it's no problem learning and sending codes there.
But I want to get ride of a couple of remotes and just use the MCE Remote)

 

[TVmecken]

Hi Pastill,
From your description it seems you are moving around the transmitter diode sometimes closer to the TV, sometimes used to learn the MCE tranceiver, so maybe you are not following the practial arrangements guidelines?

1. Positioning of the (very weak) MCE transmitter diode. In my case I have to locate (on my amp or TV) the exact location of the IR receiver sensor and then fix the transmitter diode right on that spot using the self-adhesive surface. When used on my Plasma I even had to optically shield it from Plasma TV screen light interference. Once fixed, you do not want to remove it since you wear out the selfadhesive surface.

2. When learning the MCE tranceiver you must put the transmitting remote very close (within 1-2 cm) to the MCE receiver. This is required for standard remotes with strong IR emission. I never heard of someone learning back into the MCE tranceiver using the transmitter diode. The transmitter diode is very weak and I am not surprised if it fails learning the MCE tranceiver, even at short distance.

Maybe you are already following these guidlines and maybe you are faced with a hardware error, but I could assure you that there are many ppl, including me, that are successfully using the IR server to control their whole setup (HTPC, amp, SetTopBox, TV etc)

 

[Pastill]

I divide this in two parts.

1. Following your instructions I had this results:
(When placing the IR-bean 0 - 10 cm in a very narrow segment from reciever sensor )
a. Amplifier reacts on MCE transmitter with on/off and +/-
b. TV had no reactions

So TV is still a problem with the transmitter / IR Server.
No problem when using MS MCE Remote that I've learned the code.



The reason for going the way through the transmitter to collect the ir-codes was more from a testpurpose since nothing worked . No intention of using that in final solution.


2.
You say it's a very weak signal. What is the reason that this IR transmitter produce such a weak signal.
When testing with Hauppauges remote and transmitter (Hauppauge transmitter looks the same as this one) I had no such problems. No problem to steer TV and other equipment from long distance. (Unfortunatly Hauppauge remote can't wakeup PC from Standby).
My amplifier is placed just beside the HTPC but my TV is placed 3m away. Why need to have (extended) wires ( if it works with TV) all around when it's an IR device ?

I'm still not convinced (and I can't verify by messuring ):
Is it just a weak signal or is it a bad/wrong signal produced by IR Server and/or the MS Tranciever?
Why should Microsoft / Phillips build such a bad IR transmitter ( from a hardware aspect), when they have no problems building an efficient Remote ?

 

[deebo]

harmony 525 - 40eur
not having to debug stupid software - priceless

 

[and-81]

Pastill:

I'm doing some investigations here. I have a Pronto that I am able to verify results with to. We'll get this sorted out for you I.

IR Commands will always change slightly when you learn/transmit/re-learn them because at each step of the way there is a Digital to Analog / Analog to Digital conversion taking place. But the amount of difference you're seeing is too much...

It is true that the IR transmitter buds that come with the MCE device are very weak. They have a very short range, and unless they are positioned ~100% accurately they will not function correctly. I can't say for sure why Microsoft and it's OEM partners decided to do this, but my best guess is that they didn't want transmitted signals feeding back into the receiver or influencing devices other than the intended receiver. Whatever the reason, it is deliberately a weak transmitter, there is no doubt about that.

The little IR transmitter bugs need to placed directly onto the IR receiver of the device they are controlling, that's what the adhesive patch on the bud is for.

Microsoft's page on setting up the IR buds shows how they need to be placed:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/using/setup/settop.mspx

I've made a number of small changes to the way the IR learning and blasting work now and will make it available in a new test copy of the IR Server Suite that I will release within the next few days. Before I release it I will try to ensure it is more accurate in it's IR blasting. In fact, if you send me a Private Message with your email address (preferably not a GMail address because Hotmail won't pass on the 2mb attachment to GMail, go figure) then I will send you a copy immediately and we can get this sorted out before I pass it on to the rest of the community.

Cheers,

 

[and-81]

Update:

I've got my test rig running with the latest version of the code and here are the results.

Using the first pronto code that you supplied:

Here is what TV Remote send:
0000 006C 0011 0000 0015 005A 0015 0023 0028 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0013 0013 0011 0013 0011 0015 0011 0013 030B

This is the exact code I put into the software. It translates it into the time code format when it blasts:

+547, -2344, +547, -911, +1042, -442, +495, -442, +547, -442, +495, -442, +547, -442, +495, -442, +495, -495, +495, -442, +495, -495, +495, -442, +495, -495, +495, -442, +495, -442, +547, -442, +495, -20296

Here is what the pronto saw when I blasted to it:

0000 006a 0011 0000 0016 005c 0016 0023 0029 0011 0014 0011 0016 0011 0014 0011 0016 0011 0014 0011 0014 0013 0014 0011 0014 0013 0014 0011 0014 0013 0014 0011 0014 0011 0016 0011 0014 005c

Compare that directly with the original Pronto code and it is not much different.

If you convert that into the time code format for comparison:

+562, -2352, +562, -895, +1048, -434, +511, -434, +562, -434, +511, -434, +562, -434, +511, -434, +511, -485, +511, -434, +511, -485, +511, -434, +511, -485, +511, -434, +511, -434, +562, -434, +511, -2352

Now adjust to a 50 microsecond accuracy (this is as precise as the MCE device can get) ...

Original:

+550, -2350, +550, -900, +1050, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -7500

Pronto learned:

+550, -2350, +550, -900, +1050, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -500, +500, -450, +500, -450, +550, -450, +500, -2350

So if we adjust those numbers above into the actual 50 microsecond quantized coding you'll see that to the MCE IR device they are the same.

The only differences are the slight change in the carrier frequency (006C = 38.380 Khz, 006A = 39.105 Khz) and the final silence (-7500 and -2350).

The carrier frequency difference shouldn't be a problem. Unless your TV is extremely sensitive to carrier frequency, which some very old devices seem to be.

And the silence at the end of the code is irrelevant because it is a silence, not a pulse. It is the absence of any signal and seeing as there is no following signal it cannot have an effect. Basically, the final silence cannot effect the IR receiver so it makes no difference what number you put there. Silence in between pulses of course is measured by the receiver, but the final silence stretches on to infinity (or until another IR command is sent, whichever comes first).

Now, I have been making small changes to this part of the code over the last few days, so it could be that I've fixed whatever the specific problem was for you. So try the new version and see how you go. Making sure to re-learn all the IR commands in question.

If it still doesn't work then I think it is one of the following problems:

1. MCE Device incompatibility.
Maybe your MCE device is different to mine.
If this is true then things get harder from here.

2. Receiver peculiarity.
Maybe your TV is very old or has a very picky IR receiver.

3. IR bud placement.
You don't have the bud placed correctly, with the adhesive paper cover removed.
Read the MS guide I linked in the previous post and make sure you have this correct. If not, fix and repeat.

4. IR light interference.
You have sunlight, a plasma screen tv, or some other kind of Infrared light source causing interference in either the learning or blasting of the IR command.

5. Bad voodoo.
Seek witchdoctor for immediate removal of curse.

While I wait for a Private Message from you, or until I release a new test version for everyone I will continue to experiment with the IR Carrier Frequency code to see if I can make that more accurate. It could be that the MCE device is just not accurate enough in it's blasting, or it could be that I have a small arithmetic error in there.

If I can't improve the Carrier Frequency handling and you still have problems then we may end up putting it down to the MCE device is just not good enough/accurate enough for your device. Which is possible. The MCE device is not perfect and costs a lot less than a Pronto... But let's not give up just yet.

Cheers,

 

[Pastill]

Just installed your new release.

And the result is .......




... that TV now is also reacting. On/Off is now OK.
So you have succeded in the change of building and transmitting codes ( at least for my TV)

But I noticed that now the xxx.ir file is much longer. And the longer I press the button when learning in Translator, the longer the file will be.

And if I go the way: TV Remote - Translator - MCE Remote - Translator ( just for testpurpose) it's still end with a very different code and neither the code produced in this case by the MCE Remote and last Translator will work on the TV.


But I've discover something else, more promising:
The Transmitter is now more effective. You can double the distance ( up to 30-40 cm) and/or the sending angle and still get a reaction from TV or Amplifier.
But if you replace the IR bud, with in my case a simpel standard IR bud / diod for 25 cents, the distance one can control the TV or Amp. is now often more than 4 m and within an angle of +/- 45 degree.
Earlier it was just a little bit better, now it's a huge difference.

So you must have called for/bribed a friendly woodoo priest or something, cause I didn't.



The negative part of the new release is that IR Server is more unstable. At least for me.
Have to restart IR Server more often cause it stop transmitting.


PS
Nearly forgot to wish for the Mouse functions outside MP



I attache xxx.ir file with codes.
First my TV remote, then when pressing the button for a long time and last when going the long way trough transmitter and MCE remote and...

 

[and-81]

Hey Pastill,

The IR Learning function will now record for as long as you hold down the button, instead of just the first signal.

I'm still trying to figure out why it stops blasting for some people. I'm going to try inserting some code to reset the device before each blast to see if that helps.

Also, Mouse control commands will be available in macros throughout the whole Suite (plugins and Translator) in the next version. So keep an eye out for that.

It sounds like we're making progress

Cheers,

 

[Pastill]

OK, then I just complete (?) my HTPC project with installing everything and await the last part, Mouse functionality outside MP.

After that I can with great confidence hand over the Remote to my wife and perhaps start another project.
(Redecorating the rooms that I promised her earliar )

Thank You for your help and your plugin!