Satellite n00b needs some advice (card and dish choice) (1 Viewer)

[Alphathon]

Hi all.
Some of this doesn't really belong in this part of the forums, but I figured it was better than starting two different threads (especially since it's all inter-related). Also, sorry it's so long. :sorry:

Anyway, I am currently looking in to getting a satellite dish setup, but don't really know enough about it to make any decisions. I live in the north-east of Scotland (just look up Elgin, Moray in Wikipedia and you'll get a pretty good idea of where), and want to pick up TV from both 28.2°E (Freesat + other free-to-air stations) and 19.2°E (I'm learning German so want to check out German/Austrian/Swiss FTA TV).

From what I understand, I should theoretically (based on SES Astra's footprint maps) be able to pick up either satellite group on a 60 cm dish, and I should be able to pick up both using a single dish pointed at one group and a second LNB pointed away from the other (like if the dish is pointing at 19.2°E, I'd point the other LNB at 10.2°E to get a signal from 28.2°E), in a similar set up to a Duo LNB. Here lies my first question: how big of a dish would that require? I'm guessing probably a little larger than if I were only using 1 LNB (or multiple at the apex), so maybe 70-80 cm? Also, will such a setup pick up Eurobird 1 (which lives at 28.5°E) if the 28.2°E LNB is the offset one (as I understand it, most 28.2°E dishes can pick it up normally)?

For now at least, the dish is only really going to be used by me on my PC, but in the future it will most probably also be used in the living room to get Freesat (no-one else in the family speaks German or any other language for that matter, so 19.2°E won't be needed there). As I understand it, you can only have one tuner hooked up to each output, so I'm thinking probably a 4-output LNB for 28.2°E and a 2-output one for 19.2°E, along with some kind of switcher box to choose between them (DiSEqC?) - 4-in → 2-out - for connecting my tuners (living room can just have direct feeds). Is my understanding of this accurate or can single outputs be split like from a terrestrial aerial?

Also, how much are the dish and LNBs going to cost (or, to be more accurate, how much should they cost)? I'm thinking maybe ≈£30-40 all together (estimate, not budget).

Right, now on to the card. From what I can tell, all the broadcasts from 28.2°E are DVB-S/S2, and those from 19.2°E, are DVB-S/S2 and analogue PAL. However, it seems (based on King of Sat) that most, if not all, of the PAL channels are also on DVB-S, so I think I'll only need a DVB-S/S2 tuner (the PAL ones are probably shutting down soon anyway if Germany is anything like the UK). Now, I think my best bet is some kind of dual-tuner card, but I don't know much else that it'd need. I don't know what/how many (if any) free-to-view channels there are on 19.2°E (although I think on 28.2°E it's pretty much just Freesat from Sky, which I'm not bothered about), so I don't know if I'd need/benefit from a viewing card (CAM?) reader; I don't care about pay channels. Also bear in mind that the card will almost certainly need to be PCI-e, since I haven't any PCI slots left. I also already have both a Hauppauge Nova T-500 and a Black Gold BGT3620 for digital terrestrial (DVB-T/T2), so if there are any driver conflicts or anything there then such a card is a non-starter.

Also, is there a DVB EPG broadcast by either of these sat groups? If not I'm guessing XML listings is the way to go (I already do that for my DVB-T2 channels anyway). Where would I get listings for the German channels? Never mind, I realised the countries are all under WebEPG so it's a bit of a stupid question. Also, are there likely to be any issues with time zones for the German ones (i.e. will they be listed as, say, 20:00 when over here it's 19:00, and is there a way around it if they do)?

As a final point, I have also looked in to 23.5°E and 13°E but haven't found anything really of interest. Are there any other sats worth looking into?

Basically, here's what I need to know:

• What size of dish do I need to pick up 19.2°E and 28.2°E simultaneously? Answered
  • How much is it likely to cost?
  • Will this pick up Eurobird 1
• Are there any other satellites worth receiving (for German and English programming) that I can get in the UK?
• Is my understanding of LNBs accurate, and if not what have I missed/got wrong? Answered
  • How much are they likely to cost?
• What card would you recommend?
  • How much will it cost?
  • Do I need/would I benefit from CAM support?
• Is there a DVB EPG broadcast? - Partially answered (for Freesat)
• Are there EPG timezone issues and, if so, how are they resolved?
• Is there any (non-aesthetic) difference between solid white and black mesh dishes (or any other, less common, kinds) in terms of signal reception? Answered

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice you might have, and Mods, if this post is in the wrong place, please don't hesitate to move it.

 

[mm1352000]

Hi Alphathon

Here lies my first question: how big of a dish would that require? I'm guessing probably a little larger than if I were only using 1 LNB (or multiple at the apex), so maybe 70-80 cm?

Your reasoning/research is correct - you would require a slightly larger dish. The further you move an LNB from the focal point, the larger the dish you would require to receive the equivalent SNR from a dedicated dish. 8 degrees is a reasonably wide separation. On my 90cm dish signals that far out start to get a little dodgy, but I'm sure what you want can be done with a good quality dish. Keep in mind that satellites received from outer LNBs are more likely to suffer from rain fade, so if the channels from 19.2e are reasonably important to you (ie. you'd want to watch them rain, hail or shine) then the bigger the dish you can afford/justify, the better. A 75cm might do it, but a 85-90cm is probably what I would be looking at.

Also, will such a setup pick up Eurobird 1 (which lives at 28.5°E) if the 28.2°E LNB is the offset one (as I understand it, most 28.2°E dishes can pick it up normally)?

I can't be sure because NZ's satellite scene is quite different to the UK's, however I would say "yes"... as long as the skews of the two satellites match closely enough.

As I understand it, you can only have one tuner hooked up to each output...

Technically not true, but in practise yes. If you have multiple tuners hooked on to one output then you will only be able to receive one of the "bands" (low band, high band) and one of the polarities (horizontal, vertical) at any given time. In NZ, we only have one band (high band) and 90% of the channels are on one polarity, so many people do split a single feed (and miss out on 10% of the channels). That is unlikely to be a reasonable compromise in the UK because there are more channels available, however it might be cheaper.

...so I'm thinking probably a 4-output LNB for 28.2°E and a 2-output one for 19.2°E, along with some kind of switcher box to choose between them (DiSEqC?) - 4-in → 2-out - for connecting my tuners (living room can just have direct feeds). Is my understanding of this accurate or can single outputs be split like from a terrestrial aerial?

Quad output LNB + twin output LNB with a DiSEqC switch for each tuner in your PC should work fine.
Having said that, you may want to research multiswitches. Multiswitches allow each connected tuner/STB to receive any input independently from what any other tuner/STB is receiving. The disadvantage is that you have to provide one feed for each band/polarity (so 4 feeds per satellite) -> you'd require a quad output LNB for both satellites. The advantage is that you can then connect as many tuners/STBs as the multiswitch has outputs for. In practice it may be cheaper to just buy multi-output LNBs and DiSEqC switches if you don't ever envision wanting to connect more than 4 tuners/STBs to either/any of the satellites.

Also, how much are the dish and LNBs going to cost (or, to be more accurate, how much should they cost)? I'm thinking maybe ≈£30-40 all together (estimate, not budget).

Completely dependent on local prices so no comment.

Right, now on to the card.

You may want to look at -->this<--. It is written with NZ in mind, but should still give you a good idea of what is available. Note that Blackgold cards don't support DiSEqC in MediaPortal yet, so you'll have to wait for 1.3.x for that or get a different brand of card.

Also, is there a DVB EPG broadcast by either of these sat groups?

Freesat does broadcast EPG. Further than that, I have no idea.

As a final point, I have also looked in to 23.5°E and 13°E but haven't found anything really of interest. Are there any other sats worth looking into?

No idea sorry. If you do look at getting other sats then you may want to look into a torroidal dish. Slightly more expensive, but a good alternative to a dish motor.

mm

 

[Alphathon]

Thanks very much for the reply.

… A 75cm might do it, but a 85-90cm is probably what I would be looking at.

Seems fairly reasonable; now I just need to find somewhere that sells the things. Maplin have an 80cm dish for £50 (≈US$80, NZ$96), but they always seem to be quite expensive, so I'd imagine £40 for an 80cm dish wouldn't be unreasonable. Any tips from my fellow brits on reasonably priced, reliable suppliers would be much appreciated.

Quad output LNB + twin output LNB with a DiSEqC switch for each tuner in your PC should work fine.
Having said that, you may want to research multiswitches. Multiswitches allow each connected tuner/STB to receive any input independently from what any other tuner/STB is receiving. The disadvantage is that you have to provide one feed for each band/polarity (so 4 feeds per satellite) -> you'd require a quad output LNB for both satellites. The advantage is that you can then connect as many tuners/STBs as the multiswitch has outputs for. In practice it may be cheaper to just buy multi-output LNBs and DiSEqC switches if you don't ever envision wanting to connect more than 4 tuners/STBs to either/any of the satellites.

When you say "with a DiSEqC switch for each tuner in your PC", what do you mean? I'm not all that familiar with this stuff so don't really know how it'd be set up. Is a DiSEqC basically always an X-in, 1 out system (so one switch per tuner input) and a multiswitch an X-in Y-out system (so one box that does the lot)? If that's the case, then it'd pretty much have to be a multiswitch as I want the ability to have two 19.2°E programs recording/being watched, two 28.2°E or one of each (obviously talking about channels on different transponders here, not on the same one).

I can see this bit being the most (unexpectedly) expensive. Again, Maplin have some Quad-LNBs from £30-40, so two + the dish would come to ≈£100-120 (US$160-190, NZ$192-230) from them. Let's just hope they are on the expensive side (as they normally are). EDIT: Looks like they are; B&Q have one for £25.

Also, I assume STB = Set-top-box (or something to that effect).

You may want to look at -->this<--. It is written with NZ in mind, but should still give you a good idea of what is available. Note that Blackgold cards don't support DiSEqC in MediaPortal yet, so you'll have to wait for 1.3.x for that or get a different brand of card.

Thanks for the link. Looks like the TBS card is one to consider. It's being sold on amazon.co.uk (by a third party) for £75, which, again, seems reasonable. It also mentions that it "supports internet via satellite". This is something I hadn't even thought of and I assume it means things like ASTRA2Connect. Considering how bad my broadband is (≈1Mbps ADSL through a land-line), that might actually be an improvement. Still, it's probably not a cheep option. Shame about the Blackgold cards though - I really like my BGT3620 so another one of theirs would've been fine.

Freesat does broadcast EPG. Further than that, I have no idea.

Well that certainly simplifies things somewhat. Cheers.

If you do look at getting other sats then you may want to look into a torroidal dish. Slightly more expensive, but a good alternative to a dish motor.

Wow, that thing looks bizarre, but in a cool kind of way. Not sure my family would agree though.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, it was most helpful. Now I really just need to find a good UK retailer.

EDIT: Wha‽ How did I manage to thank you three times? Meh, whatever, it was a very helpful post.

 

[mm1352000]

Hi again

When you say "with a DiSEqC switch for each tuner in your PC", what do you mean? I'm not all that familiar with this stuff so don't really know how it'd be set up. Is a DiSEqC basically always an X-in, 1 out system (so one switch per tuner input) and a multiswitch an X-in Y-out system (so one box that does the lot)?

Technically DiSEqC is a switching protocol which is used to control most newer switches (including some multiswitches). Colloquially "DiSEqC switch" just means any switch that is controlled by DiSEqC commands... but there are lots of variations. MediaPortal currently supports 4 port DiSEqC switches (meaning 4 inputs, 1 output). Those kinds of switches tend to be the cheapest and most common these days.

You don't need a multiswitch - I only suggested it in case:
1. You wanted to get more than 4 satellites (well, 4 LNBs).
2. It might be more "future proof" for if you wanted to add more tuners or STBs (yes, "set top box" ) or satellites in the future.
3. It is unlikely, but it could also be cheaper.

Multiswitch method
-----------------------
1. Buy multi output LNBs for each satellite that you need access too. The LNBs must have at least one output for each band/polarity combination (eg. low band, horizontal polarity) that you want to receive. Generally that will be 4 combinations -> quad output LNBs.

2. Buy a multiswitch with:
- as many inputs as necessary to cater to the number of LNB inputs you would like
- as many outputs as necessary to cater to the number of tuners and STBs you would like

3. Connect each LNB output to an input on the multiswitch.
4. Connect each tuner/STB to an output on the multiswitch.

DiSEqC switch method
--------------------------
1. Buy one quad output LNB (28e) and one twin output LNB (19.2).
2. Buy two 4 port DiSEqC switches.
3. Connect 1 28e output to one of the DiSEqC switch inputs.
4. Connect 1 19.2e output to another of the DiSEqC switch inputs.
5. Repeat 3 & 4 for the second DiSEqC switch.
6. Connect the outputs from the DiSEqC switches to your two PC tuners.
7. Connect the remaining 28e outputs to other STBs/tuners.

Shame about the Blackgold cards though - I really like my BGT3620 so another one of theirs would've been fine.

It is not hard to add the DiSEqC support. Just awkward. If you bought one then I *could* provide a patch for you. I bet the BGT3600 is looking pretty nice?

mm

 

[Alphathon]

The multi-switch certainly seems like a better option, so if the price is comparable (within maybe £10-15) to the "DiSEqC switch" method then I'll probably go for that. Just to clarify, why do you need all four inputs for the multi-switch but not the "DiSEqC switch"? Can they not tell the LNB to change band/polarity (the "DiSEqC switch" seems to be able to and in fact relies upon it, unless I've missed something)?

It is not hard to add the DiSEqC support. Just awkward. If you bought one then I *could* provide a patch for you. I bet the BGT3600 is looking pretty nice?

That really depends on what it involves and how long it would probably take. I assume there isn't a "generic" way to to support DiSEqC (like BDA does for accessing tuners) so it needs to be done on a card-by-card/chip-buy-chip/manufacturer-by-manufacturer/whatever basis and it simply hasn't been done for Blackgold yet. The BGT3600 is very tempting I have to admit; a bit pricey though.

 

[mm1352000]

Just to clarify, why do you need all four inputs for the multi-switch but not the "DiSEqC switch"? Can they not tell the LNB to change band/polarity (the "DiSEqC switch" seems to be able to and in fact relies upon it, unless I've missed something)?

Switching between bands is traditionally done by sending or not sending 22 kHz to the LNB. Polarity is controlled by supplying 13 or 18 volts. You can't have 22 kHz both on and off in one cable, nor can you have both 13 and 18 volts on a single cable. Hence, for a multiswitch to enable *each STB* to select *any* satellite input (band/polarity combination) *at any time*, it must be given a separate feed of each combination.

A DiSEqC switch on the other hand only has to supply one output. It just makes the connection to the input (satellite) that the connected tuner/STB wants to receive, and the tuner/STB can send 22 kHz and/or 13/18v as required to select the desired band and polarity.

That really depends on what it involves and how long it would probably take. I assume there isn't a "generic" way to to support DiSEqC (like BDA does for accessing tuners) so it needs to be done on a card-by-card/chip-buy-chip/manufacturer-by-manufacturer/whatever basis and it simply hasn't been done for Blackgold yet.

As of Windows 7 there are BDA interfaces. There was also a de-facto generic way for basic 4 port switching in XP, however most manufacturers did their own thing. It would take 5 minutes (literally) to add support for Blackgold if that is the only brand of satellite tuner that you intend to use.

 

[Alphathon]

Switching between bands is traditionally done by sending or not sending 22 kHz to the LNB. Polarity is controlled by supplying 13 or 18 volts. You can't have 22 kHz both on and off in one cable, nor can you have both 13 and 18 volts on a single cable. Hence, for a multiswitch to enable *each STB* to select *any* satellite input (band/polarity combination) *at any time*, it must be given a separate feed of each combination.

A DiSEqC switch on the other hand only has to supply one output. It just makes the connection to the input (satellite) that the connected tuner/STB wants to receive, and the tuner/STB can send 22 kHz and/or 13/18v as required to select the desired band and polarity.

I assume the 13/18 V and 20 kHz can't be generated by the switch then (or at least generally isn't), because I'd have thought the switch (assuming it's an active device) could just 1) get the signal to go to, say, high-horizontal 2) send a signal for high-horizontal to one of the inputs not currently being used by another tuner (or split an already-in-use high-hor signal to two outputs) 3) set the output to use the input mentioned in 2). Anyway, I've had a quick look at DiSEqC prices and multi-switch prices, and given how cheep DiSEqCs are (≈£10), I think I'll just use them for now; I (assume I) can always upgrade to a multi-switch later if need be. As for the LNBs, the price difference between 2-out and 4-out seems pretty minimal, so I think I might as well go for 2 4-outs rather than one of each; that way I don't have to upgrade the LNB if I upgrade to a multi-switch.

As of Windows 7 there are BDA interfaces. There was also a de-facto generic way for basic 4 port switching in XP, however most manufacturers did their own thing. It would take 5 minutes (literally) to add support for Blackgold if that is the only brand of satellite tuner that you intend to use.

Ah right, well if it's so quick to do then I might consider a BG card - depends on the pricing/other features really (the BGT3600 would be nice, but I really don't need 4 DVB-T2 tuners + 2 DVB-T ones Heck, there's only one T2 Mux and only 5 T ones… and I don't think I've ever watched anything on SDN/COM4). I guess if you did make a patch other users might find it useful as well.

Oh, I just though of something else: is there any difference (other than aesthetics obviously) between solid white (painted?) and black mesh dishes in terms of how well they pick up a signal?

 

[mm1352000]

I assume the 13/18 V and 20 kHz can't be generated by the switch then (or at least generally isn't)...

My multiswitch does exactly that, but DiSEqC switches are passive - they don't.

I (assume I) can always upgrade to a multi-switch later if need be.

Absolutely, especially if you buy 2 quad output LNBs. Your cabling might not be completely reusable, however cable is one of the cheapest parts of the install.

Ah right, well if it's so quick to do then I might consider a BG card...

Sure, just flick me a PM if you do. On the topic of DVB-T2 muxes: there are only going to be more in the future...

Oh, I just though of something else: is there any difference (other than aesthetics obviously) between solid white (painted?) and black mesh dishes in terms of how well they pick up a signal?

Mesh dishes aren't quite as sensitive. I don't *think* paint colour makes a significant difference.

 

[Alphathon]

I assume the 13/18 V and 20 kHz can't be generated by the switch then (or at least generally isn't)...

My multiswitch does exactly that, but DiSEqC switches are passive - they don't.

When you say "DiSEqC switches", do you mean DiSEqC based multi-switches or single-output switches? Regardless, I don't suppose it really matters - I wont be getting a multi-switch for the time being anyway.

Ah right, well if it's so quick to do then I might consider a BG card...

Sure, just flick me a PM if you do. On the topic of DVB-T2 muxes: there are only going to be more in the future...

That's true; I'm just not sure that I can really justify ≈£130 on a tuner on top of everything else (if that's all I was buying that'd be OK). Also, I've read online about issues with Blackgold cards, where if you have 2 installed, not all of the tuners are detected (although that might be restricted to specific cards and may be a Media Center issue for all I know). Still, the only other alternative they seem to have at the moment swaps the DVB-T2 tuner for an ASTC one, which would be even less useful.

Oh, I just though of something else: is there any difference (other than aesthetics obviously) between solid white (painted?) and black mesh dishes in terms of how well they pick up a signal?

Mesh dishes aren't quite as sensitive. I don't *think* paint colour makes a significant difference.

OK, a white one it is then - probably better for me anyway as our house has white harling, so it'd blend in nicely.

 

[Alphathon]

Has anyone ever used aerialshack.com? (Satellite dish and equipment retailers)

I've had a look around, and it seems fairly hard to find people that sell dishes etc (the cards don't seem to be that hard to source). Has anyone ever used Aerial Shack? I came across them today and they seem to have a comparatively good range. They have an 80cm black mesh dish for £39.99, or an 88cm solid black dish for £54.99. Their cheapest quad-LNB is £22.99.

What about SystemSat direct? They seem to have some cheaper options, such as this 95cm solid dish for £39.18 or this 80cm one for £21.10.

Shipping seems to be ≈£13 from Aerial Shack and ≈£14 from SystemSat direct, (mainly due to my postcode :/) so there doesn't seem to be anything in it there.

• Do these prices seem reasonable?
• Have any of you ever used them Aerial Shack or SystemSat direct before?
  • Are they reliable?
• Is it really worth the extra £15 for an extra 8cm diameter (I know the surface area is increased far more than the diameter increase would suggest - I'm just doing a cost-benefit analysis basically).
• Would I need some kind of additional bracket to attach the second LNB?

I'll keep looking, but again, if anyone has any other (UK based) suggestions that'd be grand.

I've also considered maybe hunting on eBay. Other than the general stuff to watch out for on there, is there anything I might need to look for in a second-hand dish (and is it worth the trouble)?