Best quality analog TV card? (2 Viewers)

[sdf]

I do use LAV for decoding, and I have the BFF/TFF set to auto. Tried setting it to both manual settings yesterday, did not seem to have any impact.

It could be useful to know the parameters of the software encoder used by HVR-1100 (frame rate, bitrate, BFF/TFF).
If you record 1 minute of tv, what MediaInfo says of that (.mpg-.ts) file?
It really seems to me an encoder-decoder mismatch.
Bye,
sdf

 

[osksa]

To be "on the safe side" I would still recommend to check the frame rate on some of these sources. You might be surprised and find that many are 29.97 fps, and that would explain why they do not have the problem when the HVR-1100 does.

Good idea, tried that. All my recording are 25.0000 fps except digital tv recordings in HD via dvb-t2, which are 50 fps. (Another card, Black Gold). Using mediainfo I could se that when I change the frame rate on the HVR-1100 to 29, it does record in 29. Does not affect the jerky motion problem though.[DOUBLEPOST=1445436432][/DOUBLEPOST]

It could be useful to know the parameters of the software encoder used by HVR-1100 (frame rate, bitrate, BFF/TFF).
If you record 1 minute of tv, what MediaInfo says of that (.mpg-.ts) file?
It really seems to me an encoder-decoder mismatch.

Alright, below is mediainfo for a recording. A diff with a mediainfo made from the PVR150 card is here. The videofiles are here. I have noticed that the two cards use different field order and different mpeg profile. Don't know if it is relevant.

General
ID                                       : 1 (0x1)
Complete name                            : G:\MediaPortal recordings\Vänner - KANAL 5 - 2015-10-21 HVR1100 PAL.ts
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 89.6 MiB
Duration                                 : 1mn 46s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 7 034 Kbps

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : High@Main
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Default
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=12
Format settings, picture structure       : Frame
Codec ID                                 : 2
Duration                                 : 1mn 46s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 6 557 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 8 000 Kbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 5:4
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.632
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:32:02
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed                         : Open
Stream size                              : 83.2 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID                                       : 192 (0xC0)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG Audio
Format version                           : Version 1
Format profile                           : Layer 2
Codec ID                                 : 4
Duration                                 : 1mn 46s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 128 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 32.0 KHz
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 9ms
Stream size                              : 1.63 MiB (2%)

 

[sdf]

Had a fast look at the files, and at a first glance it doesn't seem an encoding/decoding mismatch problem.
Just another (and last) two stupid questions.
Did you make the files using the same antenna connector?
How do you see tv using hauppauge software that comes with hvr-1100?
Bye,
sdf

 

[osksa]

They are not stupid questions, I appreciate that you take your time and try to help figuring this out.

Did you make the files using the same antenna connector?

Yes, both the tv cards get the same TV signal from the same cable tv outlet. The signal goes through a splitter and then into each tv card. I have tried without the splitter as I said above, and there is no difference.

How do you see tv using hauppauge software that comes with hvr-1100?

Actually I was comparing that yesterday, and there is no motion problem using WinTV 7 application that comes with the card. The image still is grainy and worse than the image from the PVR-150, but maybe the HVR-1100 is just a real piece of crap regarding analog TV.

Here is a recording from WinTV7 where I think motion is good. Colors are not, see below.

It is interesting that WinTV let's me change decoder, and when I set it to use VRM9 as renderer and LAV as decoder, image looks fine regarding motion. If I set MediaPortal up in the same way, motion is really bad. So I think the motion problem has something to do with MediaPortal, but since motion looks fine when encoding using the ATI encoder, it is not only up to MediaPortal.

What is even more strange is that I tried to connect the computer to a grounded outlet the other day to see if that had any impact on the noise levels in TV. It did not, but since then all colors look really faded. Reconnected to non grounded outlet. Nothing. Tried changing drivers and rebooting several times. Colors look washed out in WinTV, MediaPortal and Windows Media Center. Can't understand why. This card is really a troublemaker! See screenshots, two from the HVR1100 using winTV7, and two from the PVR150 using snipping tool from MediaPortal. Suppose I'll ask Hauppauge about the colors too, but they are not too quick to answer, and this seems so strange they'll think I'm crazy =)

 

[mm1352000]

It is interesting that WinTV let's me change decoder, and when I set it to use VRM9 as renderer...

Using VMR9 is not recommended for Vista and newer. Please do not use it.

...image looks fine regarding motion. If I set MediaPortal up in the same way, motion is really bad. So I think the motion problem has something to do with MediaPortal...

To be clear: presumably WinTV is using the Hauppauge/MainConcept encoders, but I don't think there is any way to know if they are configured in the same way as TV Server is using them (video standard, frame rate, bit rate etc.). My point is:

1. MP and WinTV are not likely to be using the same encoding settings, so you are not comparing apples with apples.
2. You cannot blame MP for the behaviour of the encoder. It is a 3rd party component. We only have very limited control over the settings (bitrate, mode etc.) in some cases.

...but since motion looks fine when encoding using the ATI encoder...

If the ATI encoder is okay, why don't you just use that?
The 2 problems you have had until now are:

1. Motion.
2. Picture/video quality (noise).

In the first case: ATI encoder does not have the motion problem, so it is superior
In the second case: we agreed the noise problem is likely to be related to A->D converters, therefore all encoders will show approximately the same picture quality. You also previously said that the ATI encoder video quality is just as good as MainConcept even though it has lower bitrate.

... so now I don't understand what you are hoping to gain by using the MainConcept (or other) encoder.

What is even more strange is that I tried to connect the computer to a grounded outlet the other day to see if that had any impact on the noise levels in TV. It did not, but since then all colors look really faded.
...
Colors look washed out in WinTV, MediaPortal and Windows Media Center. Can't understand why.

The fact that all software is equally affected tells me the cause is either the hardware, driver, or settings.
My advice is to check the video settings:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_.../02_TV_Servers/5_Scan_Analog#Video_Parameters

Better to reset them to default, then restart the PC (to ensure the change is effective).

 

[sdf]

Had a look at your .ts files on my samsung smart tv, that has a perfect pal deinterlacer and switches automatically to the right frame rate, and definetely it's an encoder (or better, not a decoder) problem.
If with the wintv software you don't have motion artifacts, i think we found where the culprit is.
To be honest, the ghosting effects on the hvr-1100 .ts files make me think about an antenna or hardware problem, but if the situation improves with hauppauge software, then we have to investigate further on the encoder side.
Another thing: have you tried to use software that takes the flow directly from the card without encoding it (to create a .ts file like tvserver does) like mpc-hc, potplayer, christv, etc?
Bye,
sdf

 

[osksa]

Using VMR9 is not recommended for Vista and newer. Please do not use it.

Ok. But for some reason EVR was grayed out in Hauppauge WinTV7, so I had to reset MediaPortal to use it too to get the same setup to compare. Now back on EVR.

My point is:

1. MP and WinTV are not likely to be using the same encoding settings, so you are not comparing apples with apples.
2. You cannot blame MP for the behaviour of the encoder. It is a 3rd party component. We only have very limited control over the settings (bitrate, mode etc.) in some cases.

Points taken.

In the first case: ATI encoder does not have the motion problem, so it is superior
In the second case: we agreed the noise problem is likely to be related to A->D converters, therefore all encoders will show approximately the same picture quality. You also previously said that the ATI encoder video quality is just as good as MainConcept even though it has lower bitrate.

... so now I don't understand what you are hoping to gain by using the MainConcept (or other) encoder.

Absolutely correct. The only reason I did not stick with the ATI was that I was not happy with the image, and I looked too much at the bitrate. Since image quality improved vastly when I found out I could set the PVR-150 bitrate up to 8-9 mbit from 4-5 before, I thought that the 3-4 mbit that the ATI encoder gives is just too little go give descent quality. Now I agree with you. Suppose it is just very efficient, and that the reason I'm not happy is that the HVR-1100 is not good at analog TV.

Checked the video parameters, did reset + reboot. Looks the same. I think the card is fried somehow. Will have to get a replacement. Just going to check with Hauppauge if they have any suggestions. And I'll ask them about what card is the best at analog TV nowdays. Thank you for you time.

 

[Vasilich]

one thought - your MediaInfo from hvr1100 shows aspect ratio 5:4, what ist just wrong. Analog sources have aspect ratio either 4:3, or 16:9 (latter is only possible if WSS signal is present in the video signal). So if you can adjust aspect ratio in your encoder settings - please do it. Yes, the pixels in analog signal are non-square, but it is because of assumption that was made once for standards to digitalize analog PAL signals, so don't wonder

 

[osksa]

one thought - your MediaInfo from hvr1100 shows aspect ratio 5:4, what ist just wrong

Interesting observation, thank you for looking, I did not notice that. What I find difficult to get is that the resolution of both recording is 576 x 720, but one says aspect ration 4:3 and the other 5:4? Suppose it has to do with the non square pixels you mention. A recording using WinTV 7 says 4:3. Unfortunately I have not found any way to control what the encoders do, not the bitrate nor the aspect ratio. =/

 

[mm1352000]

Thanks for the clarification osksa. I guess the choice about whether you get another tuner, pursue the motion issue, or do something else is up to you.

Checked the video parameters, did reset + reboot. Looks the same. I think the card is fried somehow.

Hmmmm, I don't know how you'd manage to fry it.
Have you also checked the aerial/cable connection?

Unfortunately I have not found any way to control what the encoders do, not the bitrate nor the aspect ratio.

TV Server is only able to set the bitrate and mode for some encoders... but frame rate and size should be available in all cases (because they're not encoder settings).

Please recall that on page 1 we mentioned/discussed that sometimes NTSC frame sizes and rates may need to be used for compatibility with certain encoders, even if the signal is PAL. In other words, if you want to investigate this you may try frame rate 29.97 with resolution 720x480 (or 704x480).