MySQL a Mistake (1 Viewer)

[fforde]

I really hope I don't step on too many toes because I know there are going to be some people here that don't like what I am going to have to say. But I think you guys are asking a lot from your users asking them to install and setup MySQL alongside their TVServer installation. I am a software engineer and work with MySQL and Oracle on a daily basis so it was no sweat for me to get MySQL set up, but I don't have a single friend who would have a clue what he was doing. Every single one of them I guarantee you would have f'ed something up their first try getting MySQL going for TVServer.

So why not SQLite? Yes it has some disadvantages. No it is not MS SQL Server. It is not as robust and as fast as MySQL. And yes it does have problems if you are trying to have multiple processes access the DB at once (although I personally feel everything should be going through the TVServer, rather than clients connecting to the DB directly, but that's another discussion). None of that matters though. MediaPortal is not a corporate ERP system. We are not forecasting the inventory for millions of items for distribution across the country. MySQL is overkill, and the one disadvantage with MySQL, the added burden on the user, by far outweighs all the problems with SQLite I listed above.

SQLite is a better choice because it can be completely encapsulated by the TVServer. Install TVServer and you're ready to go. Using MySQL will drive away all but the most techy, hardcore users. If you guys are going to get rid of the traditional TV client and moving forward have the TVServer as the main TV viewer, you're making a big mistake using MySQL.

Again, I'm sorry, I hope I didn't offend anyone here, I just would like to see MediaPortal move in a direction that is best for it's future and for the community.

 

[Nightmare77]

I have to honestly say i have never used any kind of database before , other than Microsoft Access which isn't really the same, and i was able to get the tv server / client working first time by doing the wiki instructions step by step , to be honest it took me about 15-20 mins to install it as i wanted to make sure i did it exactly as the wiki said but in the end it was quite simple
I think its difficult in comparision to grasp how to modify things in teh database or use mysql for any other reasons but you dont' actually really need to do that , just install it configure the server and never have to touch it again .
Don't know how others feel but i was actually prepared for a hard install of mysql but in reality it was quite easy. Only real burden is having to download 30-50meg in addition to the MP and the server install but again its only a once off install
just my thoughts

 

[fforde]

I see your point Nightmare. I am not really trying to say it's impossible for people to setup though, just that we should be trying to make it as easy as possible to get it setup. Ideally a default install should take less than a minute. I think anyone posting here probably did fine getting things going. I am talking more about the people that would download a future version with TVServer as the default, get frustrated, and move on to something else because they didn't want to "deal with this MySQL thing".

 

[scythelt]

SQLServer Express 2005 could be bundled into the TVServer install program without any additional installation steps required by the end-user. It'd end up functioning much like SQlite - ie, the end-user wouldn't even notice they were using it rather than SQlite.

I prefer MySQL, but that could be retained as an alternative for users wishing to use it instead of SQLServer Express. I use MySQL because I already use it for development purposes and it doesn't make sense to have two full-blown databases installed on the one server if I can just have one.

SQLServer Express 2005 is free and intended to be a lite version of SQLServer 2005 Standard/Enterprise and can even be bundled into an executable if desired - much like SQlite. The big benefit you get from going from SQlite to SQLServer is you get proper multi-user access; it's a proper transactional db and it's not file based like SQlite is.

In reality, if you used SQlite for the TVServer in a multi-seat environment you'd run into all sorts of problems with concurrent access that would make SQlite crap its pants in record time

There's no reason why mysql couldn't be bundled into a tvserver install either - I have a suspicion that integrating MSSQL Express into an all-in-one installer would be a much simpler process for the devs because that sort of usage is what Microsoft intended of the Express edition in the first place.

 

[druffski]

I agree with Nightmare77 here - MySQL is easy enough to setup as long as you stick to the defaults. Programs such as PHPAdmin are ok to use to allow further modification.

There are several programs out there that allow you to download and install MySQL onto a windows platform.

Does there exist a step by step guide in the MP forums for installing MySQL? Or just a guide that says accept all defaults and proceed?

 

[scythelt]

There are several programs out there that allow you to download and install MySQL onto a windows platform.

The Windows MYSQL installer has improved heaps in the v5 releases. It's a Piece Of Piss to install now.

I find the standard MySQL admin tools useful if you need to do anything directly with the database. With 99% of installs you won't need to tho, unless you really want to tinker.

I believe the roadmap for 0.2.4.0 includes improvement to the end-user setup experience and undoubtedly that will cover the database/server side of things as well as the client plugin.

IMO when 0.2.4.0 is released (and tve2 is ditched), there should be two pathways when installing - a multi-seat install (seperate server/client machines) and a single-seat install where MP and TVServer/DB are all installed on the one machine.

For users that choose the multi-seat setup - well they need to have the knowledge to setup a server, so you'd expect that could install mysql wouldn't you?

 

[fforde]

SQLServer Express 2005 could be bundled into the TVServer install program without any additional installation steps required by the end-user. It'd end up functioning much like SQlite - ie, the end-user wouldn't even notice they were using it rather than SQlite.

I agree, SQL Server Express is freely redistributable and embeddable, making it a good solution as well. The only problem I see with that though is that redistribution is only allowed on Windows platforms. Not a huge deal, but a future port to Linux or Mac OS X is a possibility via Mono. If SQL Server was used for the DB backend of the TVServer, any future ports would be much more difficult.

As far as MySQL goes, the full version could be redistributed with MediaPortal, but the embeddable version I believe is not free to redistribute. They charge for that.

In reality, if you used SQlite for the TVServer in a multi-seat environment you'd run into all sorts of problems with concurrent access that would make SQlite crap its pants in record time

That is assuming that every single client on the network is connected directly to the database. A better design I think would be to have the TVServer act as a proxy for all clients. This would prevent database corruption and some client side errors from old clients trying to access new databases. You're right though, with the current design, that would be a major problem in switching to SQLite.

I believe the roadmap for 0.2.4.0 includes improvement to the end-user setup experience and undoubtedly that will cover the database/server side of things as well as the client plugin.

That's good to know. ^^ It means other people are thinking along the same lines as I am.

Just to be clear I am not trying to push SQLite down peoples throats, my real point is the user experience needs to be improved when it comes to installation of the TVServer. If that has already been identified and there are plans to address this, then my point is moot.

 

[scythelt]

my real point is the user experience needs to be improved when it comes to installation of the TVServer.

Totally agree - and it's a really important factor to consider. In its current state, the TVServer is not really friendly from an installation perspective - there are multiple steps needed etc.

That said, it *is* still strictly in beta, so I live with that.

I'm looking forward to the further polish the 0.2.4.0 release brings and the eventual ditching of tve2.