Silverstone LC06 and MSI K8NGM2-FID based HTPC (1 Viewer)

[Mars Warrior]

A colleque of mine wants to use MP, and as a computer-noob he asked me to think of a nice HTPC configuration, nice looking, silent, low power consumption and not too expensive.

I'm thinking of the following configuration:

1. The Silverstone LC06 case (150 Euro)
This is a rather small ITX case (he has not much space) whith a 60W-80W external power supply without a fan, so dead silent. According to a test here, this case should also fit a mATX style board. Of course due to the not-that-beefy powersupply the components should not draw too much power...

2. mATX motherboard from MSI, the MSI K8NGM2-FID (87 Euro)
I don't think you can get a better mATX board suited for HTPC use. It has everything needed...

3. An AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice (140 Euro)
Suprise, surprise. This nice CPU has a very low power consumption. If you look at tests done with a Venice 3800+, you see an amazing 8Watt idle and 30Watt full load power draw. My assumption is that the 3000+ does even need less power at full load, since it is running on a lower CPU speed.

4. Either a silent 3,5"disk like the Samsung or a 2.5"disk like the Western Digital Scorpio (both around 85 Euro)
These disks are both silent, although the 2.5" is of course much more silent than the 3.5" one (1 sone against 0.5 sone). The laptop drive is of course a bit slower, but I think still fast enough for HTPC use, and it consumes far less power than the desktop drive (12Watt against 3Watt). This might be important regarding the 60-80Watt powersupply and possible cooling issues.

5. 1GB of ram, or possibly only 512MB (42 Euro per 512MB)

6. A dual layer DVD Writer like the BENQ DW1640 (40 Euro)
This nice drive automatically slows down when playing a DVD, so should be very silent. And it does burn nicely...
It also has a flat front, which is required to attach the stealth front supplied with the case.

7. As input device either a MS Remote Keyboard or MCE 2005 Remote. (Both for around 40 Euro)

8. A standard Hauppauge 150MCE TV card (0 Euro)
He has a spare one, so a very simple choice...


This makes the total price just under 600 Euro's, which is not bad for such a combination...

Of course, some questions still are unanswered:

1. Power draw.
I think these components should not draw more power than 55-60Watts. Say the CPU takes max 25W, laptop drive 5W, DVD 10W, TV Card 5W. This adds up to 45W excluding the mainboard...
If it is not enough, an stronger powersupply (120W) should be installed, also external / passive. Silverstone does deliver this powersupply as an option for other cases, but not for this one...

2. Cooling issues
The external powersupply already saves a lot of hassle regarding cooling in the case and the noise, so the only thing that should be cooled down is the CPU. At this moment I have NO idea yet which heatsink should fit into the case (must be probably a low profile one as the motherboard is on top of the DVD and harddisk) and makes hardly any noise!

3. TV Out quality
My collegue doesn't have a HD TV or something, so the DVI, VGA and Components output won't be used. And I don't know the quality of the S-Video output!
This means I might have to try a scanconverter, such as the high quality, but also a bit expensive Grand Ultimate Vision (120 Euro), or some cheaper model like the Grand Hand View III (80 Euro). The more expensive one has all the controls you would probably need to get a very good SCART quality on the TV set.

Any comments on this setup would be appreciated

 

[Tech Geek]

You are being a bit optimistic with wattage ratings and I have a hunch that Mobo + CPU + HD + DVD + TV Tuner + RAM + cooling fans = more watts than that power supply will handle.


MediaPortal is going to take 80% CPU time or better when you actually do something. And some people are experiencing 100%. I haven't checked my machine to see what mine is doing. So CPU use won't be on the light side. I think it's something like 30% sitting still.

Also take into consideration that the watt ratings of those drives is AFTER they have spun up. They require more while spinning up.
A 120W might work but what happens when you build it and the power supply goes POP because you are drawing too much?


200W is *supposedly* enough for a system according to the info in one of the sticky threads.
However, the article it refers to states that their measuring device doesn't measure spikes in power usage or peak power.
I will also point out that they didn't put the measuring device to any tests to verify it's calibration or accuracy so we don't know what level of error is in those tests. So 200W continious would probably be a good minimum for a power supply. It also gives you the ability to add more to the system later.


If you are going to attempt this use a Turion or Sempron 754. The smaller cache and as a result smaller die will draw less power. MSI makes a heat spreader for the Turion for use with standard desktop CPU coolers. The 2600+ Sempron of mine overclocked to almost 2GHz or very near 3300+ levels and was a lot cheaper than a 939 CPU.
Go with 512MB RAM. Less and XP is slow. More draws more power.

The integrated NVidia 6100, 6150 or ATi 200 will all draw less than a graphics card + board. I've now built several systems that use the ATi and 1 that uses the 6100 and I don't think you can go wrong with either. My Jetway has good TV out capability but it isn't as good as my X1300 card with Avivo so don't expect miracles.
Just remember if the TV isn't that great it's not going to improve your output.

 

[Mars Warrior]

You are being a bit optimistic with wattage ratings and I have a hunch that Mobo + CPU + HD + DVD + TV Tuner + RAM + cooling fans = more watts than that power supply will handle.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr :evil: :evil: :evil:

MediaPortal is going to take 80% CPU time or better when you actually do something. And some people are experiencing 100%. I haven't checked my machine to see what mine is doing. So CPU use won't be on the light side. I think it's something like 30% sitting still.

Well, if I check my PC with ThrottleWatch, my A64 only needs about 30% CPU @800Mhz while watching TV, but I agree that listening to music takes much more: 50-70% CPU @1800Mhz.

So Yes, you've got a point about the average CPU load and thus power draw while using MP...

Also take into consideration that the watt ratings of those drives is AFTER they have spun up. They require more while spinning up.

This is a very good point which I completely overlooked. An idling drive or seeking drive takes 8-13W, but spinning up can take as much as 25W, so Yes, this might be a problem while booting the system: It probably won't be able to boot at all...

A 120W might work but what happens when you build it and the power supply goes POP because you are drawing too much?

200W is *supposedly* enough for a system according to the info in one of the sticky threads.
However, the article it refers to states that their measuring device doesn't measure spikes in power usage or peak power.
I will also point out that they didn't put the measuring device to any tests to verify it's calibration or accuracy so we don't know what level of error is in those tests. So 200W continious would probably be a good minimum for a PSU. It also gives you the ability to add more to the system later.

Well, I'm stuck with the case, so a big, normal ATX PSU won't be a solution for me. There are however very small 120W and 200W ATX supplies but the external power bricks don't go well over 120W.

I think however that this will be enough for this system. A fast Pentium-M based system (with 3.5 Harddisk and DVD writer) takes, according to a test by Tom's Hardware 37W in idle mode and 50W under full load. Of course an A64 system does take a bit more, but I don't think that will be more than 60W-80W under full load.
This again does NOT take into account the point you made about startup power draws, but I guess/hope that using an 120W powersupply should give enough headroom (about 40W) to be used for powering up the harddrive and other components...

The problem is one can hardly find anything on this point on the internet, except for Pentium M based systems, so it still might be a close call if this really will work...

That's wy I hoped that someone could say: YES this configuration does the job!

 

[flokel]

my configuration is similiar to yours:
a64 3200+ ( set to multi 5 @ 0,875V at idle and multi 9 @ 1,075V at load via rmclock, note: with a venice core you can't reduce voltage lower than 1,1V)
asus a8n-vm csm
plextor dvd writer
512mb ram
usb keyboard & remote
skystar 2
80gb 7200 U/min hd

its consumption is
idle: 49 Watt
load: 72 Watt

with the stock cpu settings (1,4V & 2,0Ghz) it was almost 100watt,
considering this i doubt the psu can handle your system

 

[Mars Warrior]

my configuration is similiar to yours:
[...]
its consumption is
idle: 49 Watt
load: 72 Watt

with the stock cpu settings (1,4V & 2,0Ghz) it was almost 100watt,
considering this i doubt the psu can handle your system

Yes, indeed, this configuration is very similar to mine!!! THANK YOU for this information

I assume you have the same A64 as I have in my PC, which indeed needs about 60W under load. So, the 100W sounds ok to me. However an A64 3800+ Venice only takes 30W at full load! So I assume that your 72W is a very good guess for the powerdraw using a Venice core...

Again, taking this and the extra startup power needed, an 120W PSU should be enough. And in the mean time I found laptop PSU's that can deliver even 150-180W, so I guess by combining one of those with the already mentioned 120/200W DC converters, there is enough power for the proposed configuration...

 

[Tech Geek]

Just an FYI, most power supplies do handle more than their rating for spikes in power usage. How long they can deliver that depends on how good the power supply is. An external power brick without active cooling is more likely to overheat if you drive it too hard or long at those levels.

If it's a decent power supply and you aren't right at the rating for the power supply the drive spinup shouldn't be a problem... but I make no promises. The good news is that the hard drive and DVD should not be spinning up at the same time so if you have enough power for both to spin up at the same time you have some headroom left for safety.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I'm sure a lot of people would like to build systems with the smaller cases.

 

[Mars Warrior]

Just an FYI, most power supplies do handle more than their rating for spikes in power usage. How long they can deliver that depends on how good the power supply is. An external power brick without active cooling is more likely to overheat if you drive it too hard or long at those levels.

Good to know! And the 120-180W bricks I saw for laptops all have small fans inside to prevent overheating

And as flokel already pointed out, by using RMClock you can seriously lower the total power consumption for an A64 based system. I did some testing with MP that showed me that MP still performs very well while the CPU was locked down to a max speed of 1.2GHz @ 1.1V using RMClock...
And altough I never took power consumption measurements, the CPU fan stopped working after that speed/voltage combination was set as long as I didn't close the venting holes in the top of the desktop case :shock:

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I'm sure a lot of people would like to build systems with the smaller cases.

I will certainly post the system once build 8)
And I think not all ppl are looking for only a small case but also a very quiet HTPC. The combination of an external power brick and a low power A64 (using RMClock) should help and who knows make it even possible to use a passive 1U/2U CPU heatsink

 

[flokel]

it's really possible to cool a a64 passively,
nevertheless i wouldn't recommend to cool the complete system passively,
as they are components (like for example capcitors) that require a little
airflow, my experience is that the nforce chipset is getting pretty hot as well
without any cooling

how about a this cooler:
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30_413&products_id=2155
und a slow running 12cm fan like this one:
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_627&products_id=1374

 

[Mars Warrior]

I have checked once more power consumption of harddisks and DVD drives as these components seem to have startup power draws that make it necessary to have a "beefy" PSU.

1. Harddrive:
This story, HDD Diet: Power Consumption and Heat Dissipation shows that startup power can be as much as 30W, while normal operation is just 10W, meaning at least 20W headroom!

2. DVD Drive:
Same story as for the harddrive, max power consumption can be as high as 30W during startup while normal operation is about 10-15W. Again this means at least 20W headroom!

In addition, the guys at mini-itx simply warn for DVD drives in combination with a 80W PSU: "These 80W PSU kits are suitable for use with any EPIA Mini-ITX motherboard, 3.5in hard drive (or 2.5in hard drive) and a slimline optical drive - full size CD drives draw a lot of power and will damage this board".

They have however also a 150W PSU (replaces the 120W they had), which has no problem in handling the startup power consumption of a DVD and Harddisk: "You may use a full size optical and standard 3.5in hard drive with this kit."

So, in short: Although your system could draw only 60-80W during full load, you should have about 40W of headroom to make sure your Harddisk and DVD drive will spin up, ie around 120W in this case. Adding some USB devices or other stuff (TV Cards for a HTPC for instance) means the PSU is just enough. This seems to be the reason that mini-itx replaced their 120W PSU with a 150W PSU, which is great for me at least

 

[Tech Geek]

it's really possible to cool a a64 passively,
nevertheless i wouldn't recommend to cool the complete system passively,
as they are components (like for example capcitors) that require a little
airflow, my experience is that the nforce chipset is getting pretty hot as well
without any cooling

how about a this cooler:
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30_413&products_id=2155
und a slow running 12cm fan like this one:
http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_627&products_id=1374

Just an FYI, you can have a similar cooling setup just by purchasing a Thermaltake silent 939. It's not quite as large but it cools very well and is very quiet.

I do have a fanless CPU cooler I purchased for my desktop but it requires replacing the plastic bracket on the moterboard and I still have to buy a couple parts to do that. The thing is pretty big (ok... huge) and it is designed to use the power supply fan to provide airflow.
The only totally fanless models I'm aware of that I wouldn't worry about overheating use heat pipes to conduct heat to the case or an external heatsink.