[solved] How do I specify a DiSEqC switch AND a 22 kHz tone switch with a DVB-S2 satellite card? (1 Viewer)

[clarkebelt]

Please help! Brand new MediaPortal user here (just installed it today) and I am trying to make it work with my 5 satellite dishes.

I'm trying to understand how to set this up: I have a Prof 7301 DVB-S2 card installed, and it is connected to a 4 port DiSEqC switch. I can understand how to configure it if each port were connected to a single LNB but here is my problem. Port 3 of the DiSEqC switch is connected to TWO different LNB's through a 22 kHz tone switch. In the "tone off" state it is connected to a Ku-band LNB and dish. The Ku LNB has a LO frequency of 10750. In the "tone on" state is is connected to a C-Band dish, and the C-band LNB has a LO frequency of 5150.

What I do not get is this: When you go into the Satellite-PC configuration and select the card, you get a screen showing four satellite positions (each of which, I assume, corresponds with a port on the DiSEqC switch in this situation. So position #3, DiSEqC would be set to Level1BA in the dropdown. But how do you set the Band and Satellite dropdowns? There are going to be two bands on the #3 position (C and Ku), and two different satellites, each of which will have a different transponder list. The satellites I am trying to receive are both in the list, but you can only select one per DiSEqC position.

And then, from other threads I have read I get the idea that I have to do something in the advanced tuning options, but other than set the LOF1 to 10750 and the LOF2 to 5150 (and I'm not 100% sure that is correct), I am not sure what else to set in that screen. And, advanced tuning options looks like it is intended primarily for scanning only a single transponder, and I don't want to do that - I want to do a full scan on both satellites. AND I don't see how to select that this applies to DiSEqC port #3 only. So I just don't see how you are supposed to configure a tone switch after a DiSEqC switch. By the way, I am in North America so there is no "predefined provider" I can use.

I'm also getting the distinct impression that MediaPortal doesn't support DiSEqC switches with more than 4 ports - if I am wrong please let me know - but if that is the case then that would not be an alternative solution.

So please tell me, exactly how do I set this up?

 

[mm1352000]

Hello and welcome clarkebelt

First, nice nick - I get the reference!

you get a screen showing four satellite positions (each of which, I assume, corresponds with a port on the DiSEqC switch in this situation.

Not exactly. They're just for scanning convenience. They enable you to scan four satellites in one scan run.

You can set up your first four satellites then scan, then set up the fifth satellite in any of the four rows (unticking the other three rows) and scan again. Changing those settings does not affect channels that have previously been scanned in.

So position #3, DiSEqC would be set to Level1BA in the dropdown.

Correct.
Level is the DiSEqC version (ie. level 1 = DiSEqC 1.0, 4 port switching).
The next two letters are the DiSEqC 1.0 option and position (...or position and option - I can never remember which way around it is).

But how do you set the Band and Satellite dropdowns?

Band is poorly named. A better name would be LNB type. You can see the corresponding settings for each LNB type if you tick to enable advanced scanning and ensure LNB overrides are disabled. Changing the band setting in the first satellite row should show the settings in the LNB override fields.

Satellite is the satellite you want to scan. We use that setting to pick the transponder list file for the scan.

There are going to be two bands on the #3 position (C and Ku), and two different satellites, each of which will have a different transponder list. The satellites I am trying to receive are both in the list, but you can only select one per DiSEqC position.

As above: you're not constrained to four satellites in total. The four rows limit the number of satellites you can scan in one scan run. After each run you can change those fields freely without affecting previously scanned channels.

So to be clear: it is not a problem to receive 5 satellites in total with 2 satellites from port 3.

And then, from other threads I have read I get the idea that I have to do something in the advanced tuning options...

You don't have to use the advanced options. In fact I'd normally recommend to avoid them if possible.

...but other than set the LOF1 to 10750 and the LOF2 to 5150 (and I'm not 100% sure that is correct), I am not sure what else to set in that screen.

Okay, so here's the thing: if you enable those LNB override settings they're going to apply for all tuners and all channels. Ideally you should avoid using them if at all possible. You avoid them by using the correct band settings.

In order to help you as quickly and simply as possible, please can you supply a list of all the satellites you're attempting to receive with the corresponding LO, DiSEqC and 22 kHz tone settings. For example:
91W, DiSEqC port 1, 10750 MHz, 22 k off
etc.

And, advanced tuning options looks like it is intended primarily for scanning only a single transponder...

Not exactly. The LNB override settings are distinct/separate from the transponder fields below. So, you could (for example) enable advanced options, enable LNB override settings, and do a "predefined provider" (ie. whole satellite) scan.

...and I don't want to do that - I want to do a full scan on both satellites.

Understood. As above.

AND I don't see how to select that this applies to DiSEqC port #3 only.

For now I'm not going to give a direct answer because the explanation could be complex and time consuming for me to write (and for you to read and understand!). If you could simply list the satellites and details as requested above it will save both of us a lot of time.

So I just don't see how you are supposed to configure a tone switch after a DiSEqC switch.

In short, the tone switch ties into the "band" (LNB type) setting, not the DiSEqC setting... but don't think about this too much. I will tell you what settings to use as soon as you supply the satellite list.

By the way, I am in North America so there is no "predefined provider" I can use.

"Predefined provider" is misleading. It actually refers to the satellite(s) selected above, not Dish or DirecTV or whatever. You select that option to scan one or more satellites with advanced options (ie. LNB overrides) enabled as explained above.

I'm also getting the distinct impression that MediaPortal doesn't support DiSEqC switches with more than 4 ports - if I am wrong please let me know - but if that is the case then that would not be an alternative solution.

Yes, that's correct - we don't support DiSEqC 1.1 (16 port) switches or cascaded switches (one switch connected to another).
Your current setup with one 4 port switch and one 22k switch should be fine though once we work through the details.

So please tell me, exactly how do I set this up?

As above: the place to start is with a full list of your satellites and the LOF, DiSEqC and 22 k settings for each of them. If you can provide that I can tell you exactly what to set.

In case it helps with other questions: we have a wiki.
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com

Info about satellite scanning is here:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_...rver_Configuration/02_TV_Servers/3_Scan_DVB-S
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_...dvanced_Tuning_Options/1_DVB-S_Tuning_Details

Regards,
mm

 

[clarkebelt]

Hello and welcome clarkebelt

First, nice nick - I get the reference!

Cool! (For those that don't - see Wikipedia). And thank you very much for such an informative response!

you get a screen showing four satellite positions (each of which, I assume, corresponds with a port on the DiSEqC switch in this situation.

Not exactly. They're just for scanning convenience. They enable you to scan four satellites in one scan run.

You can set up your first four satellites then scan, then set up the fifth satellite in any of the four rows (unticking the other three rows) and scan again. Changing those settings does not affect channels that have previously been scanned in.

Ah, that's interesting. If I understand what you are saying correctly, I would assume that each successfully scanned transponder is stored in a data file somewhere that also contains the DiSEqC and tone switch settings, and type of LNB? Just out of curiosity, can that data be edited directly if some has a need to do so?

So position #3, DiSEqC would be set to Level1BA in the dropdown.

Correct.
Level is the DiSEqC version (ie. level 1 = DiSEqC 1.0, 4 port switching).
The next two letters are the DiSEqC 1.0 option and position (...or position and option - I can never remember which way around it is).

But how do you set the Band and Satellite dropdowns?

Band is poorly named. A better name would be LNB type. You can see the corresponding settings for each LNB type if you tick to enable advanced scanning and ensure LNB overrides are disabled. Changing the band setting in the first satellite row should show the settings in the LNB override fields.

Satellite is the satellite you want to scan. We use that setting to pick the transponder list file for the scan.

There are going to be two bands on the #3 position (C and Ku), and two different satellites, each of which will have a different transponder list. The satellites I am trying to receive are both in the list, but you can only select one per DiSEqC position.

As above: you're not constrained to four satellites in total. The four rows limit the number of satellites you can scan in one scan run. After each run you can change those fields freely without affecting previously scanned channels.

So to be clear: it is not a problem to receive 5 satellites in total with 2 satellites from port 3.

And then, from other threads I have read I get the idea that I have to do something in the advanced tuning options...

You don't have to use the advanced options. In fact I'd normally recommend to avoid them if possible.

I would like to avoid them, since I don't really understand exactly how they work or how to avoid unwanted settings from being used.

...but other than set the LOF1 to 10750 and the LOF2 to 5150 (and I'm not 100% sure that is correct), I am not sure what else to set in that screen.

Okay, so here's the thing: if you enable those LNB override settings they're going to apply for all tuners and all channels. Ideally you should avoid using them if at all possible. You avoid them by using the correct band settings.

Except I'm not seeing a way to set the 22 kHz tone off or on.

In order to help you as quickly and simply as possible, please can you supply a list of all the satellites you're attempting to receive with the corresponding LO, DiSEqC and 22 kHz tone settings. For example:
91W, DiSEqC port 1, 10750 MHz, 22 k off
etc.

Well that is kind of up in the air at the moment as I am just in the process of getting this system operational again. That's why I'd kind of like to know how this works, so if I make changes in the future (very likely), I know how to change it here. But right now, here is what I have:

Moveable C-band dish connected to DiSEqC port 1, 5150 MHz, no tone switch. I actually have a VBox positioner controller attached to it but recently replaced the LNB and for whatever reason we are getting much lower signal strengths than expected, so for the moment we have placed that on the back burner. I actually haven't yet decided whether to park that on a single satellite most of the time, or try to connect the controller box to the tuner card and see if it can move the dish (in theory it should be able to, but that is not my top priority right now). So for the moment just consider DiSEqC port one as C-band but not yet committed to a particular satellite.

After that:

107.3W, DiSEqC port 2, 5150 MHz, no tone switch (at present)

125W, DiSEqC port 3, 10750 MHz, 22 k off

99W, DiSEqC port 3, 5150 MHz, 22 k on

DiSEqC port 4 is unused at this moment but we are planning to do this (this is all part of an ongoing summer project):

103W, DiSEqC port 4, 10750 MHz, no tone switch (at least for now).

Actually we may swap the dishes used for 125W and 103W because the one currently on 125W is a larger dish which I understand is necessary to successfully receive the signals from 103W. But for now, that's how it is.

And, advanced tuning options looks like it is intended primarily for scanning only a single transponder...

Not exactly. The LNB override settings are distinct/separate from the transponder fields below. So, you could (for example) enable advanced options, enable LNB override settings, and do a "predefined provider" (ie. whole satellite) scan.

...and I don't want to do that - I want to do a full scan on both satellites.

Understood. As above.

AND I don't see how to select that this applies to DiSEqC port #3 only.

For now I'm not going to give a direct answer because the explanation could be complex and time consuming for me to write (and for you to read and understand!). If you could simply list the satellites and details as requested above it will save both of us a lot of time.

So I just don't see how you are supposed to configure a tone switch after a DiSEqC switch.

In short, the tone switch ties into the "band" (LNB type) setting, not the DiSEqC setting... but don't think about this too much. I will tell you what settings to use as soon as you supply the satellite list.

Well, I have given you what I have at the moment. Right now I am most concerned about DiSEqC port 3, which is the one with the 22 kHz tone switch on it. I wish I could be more specific but as I say this is an ongoing project and things could change, particularly once I get the moveable dish working again.

One thing I wish is that there was a way to scan satellites without permanently saving them so I can see what I can actually receive from them. That might influence where the big dish winds up getting parked most of the time. But at the moment I am not as concerned about that as I am about getting the two dishes connected to #3 working.

By the way, I am in North America so there is no "predefined provider" I can use.

"Predefined provider" is misleading. It actually refers to the satellite(s) selected above, not Dish or DirecTV or whatever. You select that option to scan one or more satellites with advanced options (ie. LNB overrides) enabled as explained above.

Which you said is something I should try to avoid doing, and for the moment I'm still not quite completely understanding this. I'm sure as I use this software more, how everything works will become more clear to me. I'm a little slow to pick up new concepts (and software) sometimes.

I'm also getting the distinct impression that MediaPortal doesn't support DiSEqC switches with more than 4 ports - if I am wrong please let me know - but if that is the case then that would not be an alternative solution.

Yes, that's correct - we don't support DiSEqC 1.1 (16 port) switches or cascaded switches (one switch connected to another).
Your current setup with one 4 port switch and one 22k switch should be fine though once we work through the details.

There is always the chance that someday I may want to add another dish and therefore a second 22 kHz switch on one of the other DiSEqC outputs, but I suppose that once I understand how to configure one, I can configure another if and when that occurs. I have another Ku-band dish and LNB that I'm currently not using for anything.

So please tell me, exactly how do I set this up?

As above: the place to start is with a full list of your satellites and the LOF, DiSEqC and 22 k settings for each of them. If you can provide that I can tell you exactly what to set.

Well I have done the best I can with that at the moment. All my C-band LNBs are 5150 and all my Ku's are 10750, I avoid messing with "Universal" LNB's and such.

Since you seem to understand this stuff, I have one additional question you might be able to answer. I know that a tuner card can only receive one transponder at a time, but sometimes that one transponder can contain as many as a half dozen individual channels, or even more if some or all of them are standard definition. Once I figure how to get scheduling and recording working, would MediaPortal have the capability to record more than one program from the same transponder at the same time, and if so, is there any setting that has to be changed to enable that?

In case it helps with other questions: we have a wiki.
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com

Info about satellite scanning is here:
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_...rver_Configuration/02_TV_Servers/3_Scan_DVB-S
http://wiki.team-mediaportal.com/1_...dvanced_Tuning_Options/1_DVB-S_Tuning_Details

Regards,
mm

I will be checking those out. Thank you again for such a complete and detailed response!

 

[mm1352000]

Hello again

Not exactly. They're just for scanning convenience. They enable you to scan four satellites in one scan run.

You can set up your first four satellites then scan, then set up the fifth satellite in any of the four rows (unticking the other three rows) and scan again. Changing those settings does not affect channels that have previously been scanned in.

Ah, that's interesting. If I understand what you are saying correctly, I would assume that each successfully scanned transponder is stored in a data file somewhere that also contains the DiSEqC and tone switch settings, and type of LNB? Just out of curiosity, can that data be edited directly if some has a need to do so?

Yes, TV Server stores each successfully scanned channel (along with the transponder details) in either a MySQL or SQL Server database. The type of database depends on what you chose during install (default is MySQL). The content of the database can be directly accessed and manipulated using standard tools for those database engines - for example MySQL Workbench, SQL Server Management Studio. You can also edit channel details in TV Server configuration through the TV and radio channels sections.

Except I'm not seeing a way to set the 22 kHz tone off or on.

There is no independent 22 kHz tone setting. The tone will be turned on if the transponder frequency is above the LNB switch frequency; otherwise it will be turned off. In other words, the LNB settings (band type and/or LNB override frequencies) determine the 22 kHz tone setting. To successfully configure your switches we have to ensure that you get the correct LNB settings. That's why I asked for the satellite and LNB settings list.

Well that is kind of up in the air at the moment as I am just in the process of getting this system operational again. That's why I'd kind of like to know how this works, so if I make changes in the future (very likely), I know how to change it here.

Okay, well as above - there is no independent tone switch setting, which makes the LNB settings critical. I'll try to explain the settings I recommend with a bit of detail to try to help you understand. Without further ado...

5150 and 10750 MHz LNBs are supported as standard. If you didn't have to consider 22 kHz tone switches you could use the "C-band" band type for any 5150 MHz LNBs and the "Circular" band type for any 10750 MHz LNBs (note that circular is just a name and doesn't affect/prevent reception of linearly polarised - horizontal and vertical - transponders).

For example, to receive 107.3W...
The first thing you should always do before scanning is click "update satellite list". This downloads the latest transponder details from the internet and should ensure you find all the available channels.
To configure for scanning you'd tick any one of the satellite rows at the top, select Level1AB for DiSEqC port 2, select C-band as band type, and select 107.3W as satellite. If your tuner is DVB-S2 capable then you'd also tick "enable DVB-S2...".
Aside from that you don't need to mess with any of the other options if you don't want to. You might consider it useful to enable creating [channel] groups for each satellite so you can see at a glance which satellite each channel came from.
Otherwise you can just click "scan for channels"... and wait for the scan to complete.

Tone switches do throw a spanner into that nice simple configuration. As explained above, the tone is turned on or off depending on the LNB settings. There is no preset band type that will support the configuration that you want for port 3... so we need to use the LNB frequency overrides in the advanced options. A warning is in order: the overrides affect all tuners (you can't set different values for different tuners) and all channels (ie. if you enable, disable or change the LNB override settings those changes are applied to all previously scanned channels). That's why I don't usually recommend them. They're basically a last resort.

What values do you use for the LNB override frequencies?
Maybe it is easiest to just tell you and then explain why with a couple of examples.

Recommendation:

low LOF = 5150
high LOF = 10750
switch = 7000

Assumptions:

1. All C band satellites need to be received with LNBs with 5150 MHz LOFs.
2. All Ku band satellites need to be received with LNBs with 10750 MHz LOFs.
3. All C band satellites will be received with tone off.
4. All Ku band satellites will be received with tone on.

Implications:

1. You need to swap the connections on the tone switch for port 3 so that 99W (5150) is tone off and 125W (10750) is tone on. Hopefully that is doable. If it isn't we're going to need to get significantly more radical.

Explanation:

The most concise explanation I can give for why I recommended the settings above is:

1. The tuner selects the low LOF when the transponder frequency is less than the switch frequency; otherwise it selects the high LOF.
2. The switch frequency is chosen to tell the tuner which LOF to use. It can be set anywhere between the highest transponder frequency received with LOF 1 and the lowest transponder frequency received with LOF 2.
   
3. C band frequencies are below Ku band frequencies by definition.
4. When you combine [1], [2], [3] and the fact that you're constrained to one set of LNB settings, it should [hopefully! ] be clear that the C band LOF should be the low LOF and the Ku band LOF should be the high LOF. It wouldn't work any other way.
5. When the low LOF is selected the tuner turns the 22 kHz tone off; when the high LOF is selected the tuner turns the 22 kHz tone on. This is a standard convention due to the popularity of so-called universal LNBs in Europe and parts of Asia.
   
6. If no tone switch is present it doesn't matter if the tone is on or off - the signal will be received either way.
7. When you combine [5] and [6] it should hopefully be clear why I stated the assumptions and implications above.

This post is already getting way too long, but here's a quick example or two...

Example 1:
C band 4000 MHz transponder, tone off, 5150 LO (eg. port 1, port 2 107.3W, port 3 99W).
By explanation point [1]: 4000 is less than the switch frequency (7000), so the low LOF (5150) will be used.
By explanation point [5]: the 22 kHz tone will be off when the low LOF is used.
=> You can successfully receive this transponder

Example 2:
Ku band 12000 MHz transponder, tone off, 10750 LO (eg. port 3 125W, port 4 103W).
By explanation point [1]: 12000 is greater than the switch frequency (7000), so the high LOF (10750) will be used.
By explanation point [5]: the 22 kHz tone will be on when the high LOF is used.
By explanation point [6]: it doesn't matter if the tone is on or off if there is no switch present.
=> You can successfully receive this transponder, but only because there is no tone switch connected. If a tone switch were connected, the LNB would need to be connected to the "tone on" input on the switch.

I know it is complex, but I really hope the above info helps. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

mm

 

[mm1352000]

Some further [brief] comments and answers to your other questions...

Moveable C-band dish connected to DiSEqC port 1...

Up until now I've assumed that DiSEqC won't be a problem. However, you should be aware...
For a variety of not very interesting historical reasons DiSEqC support is tuner-dependent. Some tuners only support 4 port switching; others also support motor control; some don't support DiSEqC at all (!!!). So, whether or not you'll be able to get even the 4 port switch (let alone the motor) working in MP will depend on what tuner(s) you have. This applies to all PC software - ProgDVB, DVBViewer, DVBDream etc.

One thing I wish is that there was a way to scan satellites without permanently saving them so I can see what I can actually receive from them. That might influence where the big dish winds up getting parked most of the time. But at the moment I am not as concerned about that as I am about getting the two dishes connected to #3 working.

If you tick the group by satellite option you'll at least easily be able to delete all the channels for a given satellite, which would enable you to experiment a little easier.

There is always the chance that someday I may want to add another dish and therefore a second 22 kHz switch on one of the other DiSEqC outputs, but I suppose that once I understand how to configure one, I can configure another if and when that occurs. I have another Ku-band dish and LNB that I'm currently not using for anything.

Adding another tone switch won't be a problem as long as it is either a 5150 or 10750 MHz LNB, you pair it with the opposite kind of LNB (ie. C band and Ku band works; C band and C band or Ku band and Ku band won't work). So, [for example] you could add it to port 2.

Since you seem to understand this stuff, I have one additional question you might be able to answer. I know that a tuner card can only receive one transponder at a time, but sometimes that one transponder can contain as many as a half dozen individual channels, or even more if some or all of them are standard definition. Once I figure how to get scheduling and recording working, would MediaPortal have the capability to record more than one program from the same transponder at the same time, and if so, is there any setting that has to be changed to enable that?

Yes MediaPortal supports that straight out of the box! You don't have to fiddle with settings or anything. It should just work. As many channels as your HDD can handle.

Regards,
mm

 

[clarkebelt]

Thank you for the explanations. I am learning a lot here!

Just for future consideration it would be nice if there were an explicit tone switch setting for each of the four positions (maybe in the advanced settings) so you could have two C-band or (more likely) two Ku-band tuners on the same tone switch. The reason is that tone switches are sometimes placed out by the dishes to save wire, and it's not that uncommon to have two Ku-band dishes on the same pole. Some people even figure out ways to put multiple LNB's on a single Ku-band dish (not me, I'm not that crafty).

In my case that tone switch that has the C and Ku band dishes connected to it is in a waterproof box out on a pole and I will need to get into that to change the dishes around. It won't take me all that long, I just need to get around to it, but it may not happen until later in the week depending on weather and what else I have going on.

At the moment I'm concerned that I may have a defective tuner card here. It's having some issues tuning signals on 107 W C-band that my old standalone receiver has no problem with. The strange thing is that there are two nearly identical transponders on that satellite that only differ in terms of the content they carry, but they have almost identical specs otherwise. Yet the card will only scan one completely. On the other it blows right by the HD channels and only scans the SD channels. And if you add the channels manually (which I had an interesting time figuring out how to do earlier today), it will receive them ONLY if you tune to one of the SD channels on that same transponder first.

Stranger still, if you start on the "good" transponder (the one where all the channels ARE scanned) and then try to change to a HD program on the other, it will act as if it's changing channels but it never actually changes frequency. So if you start watching "Channel 1" from the one that scans, then change to "Channel 3" on the one that doesn't, what you will actually be watching is "Channel 3" from the one that did scan (and I did check the frequency quite carefully to make sure I had not input in the wrong one). It's as if the card sees you're going to a HD feed on that transponder and decides to just stay on the frequency it was previously on! The only way to get around it when watching Live TV is to go to one of the SD programs on that transponder first, THEN go to the channel you really want. But there is no reliable way to record one of those channels.

So that is the major issue I want to get resolved, if possible. But it is one of the strangest things I have seen in a long time because it completely defies logic!

Anyway, thank you again for your help!

 

[mm1352000]

On the other it blows right by the HD channels and only scans the SD channels.
...
So that is the major issue I want to get resolved, if possible.

That sounds like something I could investigate. Please could you zip up and post the TV Server log files, and tell me the frequencies and channels you're having trouble with so I can investigate.

 

[clarkebelt]

Not comfortable posting log files in a public forum. Any other way I can get them to you?

 

[mm1352000]

Not comfortable posting log files in a public forum. Any other way I can get them to you?

Hmmm, well I suppose you could upload them somewhere and PM me with a link.

 

[clarkebelt]

When I attempted to send you a PM I got an error message:

The following error occurred:
Participants:
You may not start a conversation with the following recipients: mm1352000.
​

So I used the contact form to send the information. Please let me know when you have received it, and thank you for looking at this issue.