TV Server: weak DVB-S signals (3 Viewers)

[mm1352000]

Hi Mikael

I don't know how I missed your response, but I hadn't received an email, so thank you for PM'ing. :sorry:

Attached are logs from reproducing the problem (extracted with the built-in debug mode of MP 1.1.0)

Okay, from the logs I don't see any problem except that signal could not be locked like you said. Have you tried to increase the signal detection wait time (TV Server configuration->general->scan tab->tune and analog settings)?

Restarting TV Server after resume/hibernate doesn't help. Tried 15 cold boots and 15 hibernate/resume.

You need to be more specific here. I'm afraid I only have more questions...

- By restarting TV Server I meant restarting the Windows service (ie. restart the TV Server service under "manual control" in TV Server configuration or in "computer management"). Are you saying that didn't help?
- When you say cold boot, do you mean switching the computer completely off, or just restarting? There is a difference.
- What did you do when you tried the 15 cold boots and hibernate/resumes? There is not enough information in the logs.

Model number of the tuner is in the logs, the Hauppauge card.

The only tuner information I can see in the logs relates to a "Hauppauge WinTV 885", but there are *many* of them. According to Hauppauge's site:
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR/DVB-T Hybrid, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR/DVB-T Hybrid, Xc3028, No FM)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8295)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8295)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx PVR, 8275a/8295)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog, 8275a/8295)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 76xxx Analog/ATSC Combo, 8275a/8295)

Which one of these is it, or is it something else?

Let me know if that specific card needs specific set up in order for it to work properly with MP.

It should only need specific setup if it is a hybrid card. I only really asked what model it is to find out whether it was hybrid or not. The fact that it sometimes works means that the card is probably set up correctly, but maybe TV Server/MediaPortal are not.

I am aware that a tuner can't be used in multiple applications at the same time. That is not what I am trying to do. IF some other application has locked the tuner, how would I find out? Can use some tool from Sysinternals to find out which process has a device locked?

Okay, it is good that you are aware of that. In the last two weeks I dealt with a problem with an analog tuner that was caused by having Hauppauge's software installed. It somehow prevented the tuner from being used in other applications even though the Hauppauge software appeared to not be running. I'm not familiar with Sysinternals tools - I generally just use the Windows task manager (and sometimes look at the running services in computer management as well).

Where do we go from here? Well, did you try the patch that I linked earlier? I could also make a patch that ignores what the driver says and tries to let you watch TV anyway, however I suspect that signal is not the problem. I am thinking that the problem is actually:
- hibernate/resume driver issue (very common)
- other software using the tuner

Briefly, if there is only a problem with hibernate/resume, then you should:
- update to the latest drivers for your tuner as provided by Hauppauge
- experiment with delaying the startup of TV Server (the "delay in seconds before..." in the general section of TV Server configuration)
- use a static IP address

For the other cause, I would try to uninstall the Hauppauge software and see if the problem goes away.

Best regards,
mm

 

[bendtsen]

Okay, from the logs I don't see any problem except that signal could not be locked like you said. Have you tried to increase the signal detection wait time (TV Server configuration->general->scan tab->tune and analog settings)?

I was not aware of this option. I will experiment with different settings and let you know of the result.

- By restarting TV Server I meant restarting the Windows service (ie. restart the TV Server service under "manual control" in TV Server configuration or in "computer management"). Are you saying that didn't help?

I realized you meant restarting the service, that has been tried too numerous times as follows:
1. Quit MediaPortal
2. Restart TV Service.
3. Restart MediaPortal.

Yes, I am saying it did not help. Are you suggesting I should restart the TV Server service while MediaPortal is running? From the normal MP startup messages I figured some kind of handskaing was going on between MP and TV Server during MP startup, that is why I close MP before restarting the service.

- When you say cold boot, do you mean switching the computer completely off, or just restarting? There is a difference.

Cold boot=for me it has always meant switching the power off, hard boot seeems to be another common term for this.
Booting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- What did you do when you tried the 15 cold boots and hibernate/resumes? There is not enough information in the logs.

The 30 startup sequences were not included in the logs. You are right about that.

Cold boot case:
1. Power off (Windows XP Shutdown).
2. Power on. System is configured for autologon (using TweakUI) and to start MP directly.
3. TV -> Program Guide (I have Swedish menus so term might be different) -> select an analog channel to start watching.

Hibernate/resume case:
1. Windows XP Hibernate, the system automatically powers off.
2. Same as above.
3. Same as above.

Which one of these is it, or is it something else?

dxdiag.txt actually indicates the model: Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1700 (Model 81xxx, Hybrid DVB-T), so it must be any of the following three. I have to take a look at the card in order to determine which chipset it has, the 82xxx/82xx sounds like Philips Semiconductors. Do you need more specific information on which one of these three it is?

Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8295)

It should only need specific setup if it is a hybrid card. I only really asked what model it is to find out whether it was hybrid or not. The fact that it sometimes works means that the card is probably set up correctly, but maybe TV Server/MediaPortal are not.

You are right it is a hybrid card. I was only after the analog tuner with MPEG2 hardware encoding here as they tend to work better with MP. That is why I haven't bothered with the DVB-T component of the card. I should have told you, sorry. I'm using another (DVB-C) card from TechnoTrend in the same system as you can tell from the logs.

Okay, it is good that you are aware of that. In the last two weeks I dealt with a problem with an analog tuner that was caused by having Hauppauge's software installed. It somehow prevented the tuner from being used in other applications even though the Hauppauge software appeared to not be running.

That sounds like a plausible theory. I don't remember exactly as it was a long time ago, but I might have installed the bundled software that came with the card so we can have that issue here. I will investigate this further.

I'm not familiar with Sysinternals tools - I generally just use the Windows task manager (and sometimes look at the running services in computer management as well).

They are a little more in-depth than the built-in Windows features. I recommend them. It turns out Microsoft bought them.

Windows Sysinternals: Documentation, downloads and additional resources

Where do we go from here? Well, did you try the patch that I linked earlier?

I tried it. I will do again to be sure. It was a long time ago now.

I could also make a patch that ignores what the driver says and tries to let you watch TV anyway, however I suspect that signal is not the problem. I am thinking that the problem is actually:
- hibernate/resume driver issue (very common)
- other software using the tuner

I don't think signal is the problem either. Are analog tuners on PCI cards in general more sensitive to varying signals or why is my TV able to show the same analog channels from the exact same source, always?

I will investigate if there are newer drivers, probably not as the card is becoming legacy.

I will also try experimenting with delaying the startup of the TV Server, that sounds like an interesting option. My own theory is that I have other software conflicting with MediaPortals TV Server and that the startup order of that software and MP is not deterministic.

- use a static IP address

That sounds weird. How would it help? I am using DHCP, but in practice it has the same leased address at all times.

For the other cause, I would try to uninstall the Hauppauge software and see if the problem goes away.

If it is installed I will give it a try.

Maybe we could improve MediaPortal logging so that we can differentiate between "no signal" and "tuner locked by other software" cases.

 

[mm1352000]

Hi again Mikael

Thanks for the detailed and specific reply - makes it easy to help you.

I realized you meant restarting the service, that has been tried too numerous times as follows:
1. Quit MediaPortal
2. Restart TV Service.
3. Restart MediaPortal.

Yes, I am saying it did not help. Are you suggesting I should restart the TV Server service while MediaPortal is running? From the normal MP startup messages I figured some kind of handskaing was going on between MP and TV Server during MP startup, that is why I close MP before restarting the service.

Your method is perfectly fine. There is handshaking between TV Server and MP, but MP should reconnect to the TV Server service if you restart TV Server.

If restarting TV Server didn't help and the tuner works in other applications when TV Server says there is no lock then that tells us that we're dealing with a TV Server or TV Server settings issue. That is confirmed even more if the tuner only sometimes works after a cold boot. Comments:

- initialisation (graph building) doesn't *seem* to be a problem
- waiting longer for lock should be checked as suggested
- the lock patch (FM radio) that was added to 1.2.0b should be tried as suggested
- don't worry about fiddling with the "delay card detection" setting as long as you have confirmed hibernate + resume/cold boot->tune in TV Server (fail)->tune in other application (success)->restart TV Server->tune in TV Server (fail).
- we can rule out channel settings because the tuner sometimes works with your existing channels

dxdiag.txt actually indicates the model: Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1700 (Model 81xxx, Hybrid DVB-T), so it must be any of the following three. I have to take a look at the card in order to determine which chipset it has, the 82xxx/82xx sounds like Philips Semiconductors. Do you need more specific information on which one of these three it is?

Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, Xc3028)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8290)
Hauppauge WinTV 885 (Model 71xxx Analog/DVB-T Hybrid, 8275a/8295)

You are right it is a hybrid card. I was only after the analog tuner with MPEG2 hardware encoding here as they tend to work better with MP. That is why I haven't bothered with the DVB-T component of the card. I should have told you, sorry. I'm using another (DVB-C) card from TechnoTrend in the same system as you can tell from the logs.

Sorry, I should have checked DxDiag. Technically you should set the tuner up as a hybrid, but there is no reason why the analog tuner should not function properly since you're not using the DVB-T component at all. There is no need for more specific information than that...

That sounds like a plausible theory. I don't remember exactly as it was a long time ago, but I might have installed the bundled software that came with the card so we can have that issue here. I will investigate this further.

I can't find any Sysinternal tools that will show hardware handles. Checking the bundled software is still a good idea though. Also, what software are you using to check whether the tuner works when it doesn't work in MP?

I don't think signal is the problem either. Are analog tuners on PCI cards in general more sensitive to varying signals or why is my TV able to show the same analog channels from the exact same source, always?

PC tuner chips seem to be generally *less* sensitive, especially if they are dual/twin+ tuners. Comparing your TV with the PC tuner isn't a fair comparison unless you know that the TV uses the same chips and circuits as the PC tuner (which is unlikely). Tuner chips are designed with different input signal tolerances, so a certain signal might work for one tuner but not for another. Also, I should say that signals can be too strong as well as too weak.

- use a static IP address

That sounds weird. How would it help? I am using DHCP, but in practice it has the same leased address at all times.

Having a dynamic address can cause problems when resuming from hibernate. If the IP address of the network adapter changes then the database and TV Server (which bind to that IP address) can get confused. Given the information in your last post, setting a static IP address is probably not going to solve your problem.

Maybe we could improve MediaPortal logging so that we can differentiate between "no signal" and "tuner locked by other software" cases.

The effects of other applications can vary from tuner to tuner so this would be difficult.

 

[bendtsen]

Hello,

Thank you for the detailed reply. I have tried some but not yet all of your suggestions. It seems that the root cause isn't nailed down yet, as I still run into the same problem.

If restarting TV Server didn't help and the tuner works in other applications when TV Server says there is no lock then that tells us that we're dealing with a TV Server or TV Server settings issue. That is confirmed even more if the tuner only sometimes works after a cold boot. Comments:

- initialisation (graph building) doesn't *seem* to be a problem
- waiting longer for lock should be checked as suggested
- the lock patch (FM radio) that was added to 1.2.0b should be tried as suggested
- don't worry about fiddling with the "delay card detection" setting as long as you have confirmed hibernate + resume/cold boot->tune in TV Server (fail)->tune in other application (success)->restart TV Server->tune in TV Server (fail).
- we can rule out channel settings because the tuner sometimes works with your existing channels

- as you say, graph building has never been the problem (at least from the logs it seems to work, always).

- I experiemented with the tuner delay settings and it started working better (I thought) but I cannot really tell. Today it didn't
work again so maybe it was pure coincidence that it worked the day I changed the settings

- have not tried the card detection delay as I have confirmed the scenario qouted above

- as you say, channel settings is not the issue here, I agree on that

- i haven't got the chance to try the 1.2.0b yet, that sounds promising if defects have been fixed in that beta

Having a dynamic address can cause problems when resuming from hibernate. If the IP address of the network adapter changes then the database and TV Server (which bind to that IP address) can get confused. Given the information in your last post, setting a static IP address is probably not going to solve your problem.

- sounds like we have some improvement potential in MP there!