Best picture quality in Vista with Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H (1 Viewer)

[frankwaan]

well I've now had time to test the deinterlacing/tearing combinations under vista 32, cyberlink pdvd8 sd/hd codecs, integrated 780g gfx, 4850e processor.

• aero+evr = bob or weave available. with CCC "vertical sync" option - No tearing. The config that I run with and I am most happy with for now .
  
• aero off (vista classic) + evr = bob, weave or adaptive available. Think I am noticing some picture quality benefit with adaptive selected (seems to cope even on 1080i contents),although CCC seems to go back to Bob by itself. But now I have tearing (movement shots, top 5 or 10% of screen gets a tear too often for comfort) so I didn't watch a lot or pursue why CCC is changing back..(tearing gives me bad headache)
  
• vista classic + VMR selected in MP directshow = no picture on HD! black screen...didn't test further.

FWIW, I didn't find that I needed any of the mentioned registry hacks to make adaptive available. just turning aero off did it.

so I don't have any totally satisfactory solution with current h/w + s/w. So what are the other options?

• add a discrete gfx board. Needs to be low-profile (due to my case) and obviously passive. Whats the min spec that will handle 1080i deinterlace nicely? Did anyone try the hybrid graphics (integrated + discrete gfx in crossfire) that780g supposedly can do in a htpc 1080i configuration? all reviews I can read of this mode are 3d-benchmark and/or gaming oriented. Or do we have to go high end for GPU to do that, in which case cpu upgrade becomes an option also..
• Phenom ... I can't find any trace in any actual retailer of the -e (65w efficient) versions of the x3 that are mentioned on many press release sites. Anybody seen one?
• Other s/w approach. suggestions?

many thanks
Ian

Hi Ian,

I went for option 1 a few months ago: another graphics solution. I bought a 9400GT card (from MSI) which is passive cooled and even has a HDMI output port. It plays every piece of content perfectly. I use the Powerdvd8 codec for SD (which has Purevideo suppot for vector adaptive deinterlacing) and Coreavc for HD (1.9.0, because in my opinion the quality succeeds the quality from PDVD8) which works great, despite it's software based, so even my 4850e can cope it.

Just for your info: I went for a new gfx board, because it had in my opinion more pros than another CPU (phenom). These were:
- price (phenom 8230 was about ~90 eur., whilst a 9400GT costs around 50-60 eur.)
- my overall experience with ATI drivers and its bugs (flickering GUI for instance)
- the arrogance to promote a "beautiful" product which then needs a Phenom for optimal playback, were I think optimal should be standard always (so we need triple cores to watch SD content nicely? hmmm.....)
- the 9400gt does 1080i with powerdvd8 codec without any hassle, with absolutely NO cpu load (so it's completely done on its own chip, via DXVA)

I like the 4850e though, its performance on SQL server (read: TV service) is super, and it's low powered.

Hope this helps!

 

[iancalderban]

Hi Ian,

I went for option 1 a few months ago: another graphics solution. I bought a 9400GT card (from MSI) which is passive cooled and even has a HDMI output port. It plays every piece of content perfectly. I use the Powerdvd8 codec for SD (which has Purevideo suppot for vector adaptive deinterlacing) and Coreavc for HD (1.9.0, because in my opinion the quality succeeds the quality from PDVD8) which works great, despite it's software based, so even my 4850e can cope it.

Just for your info: I went for a new gfx board, because it had in my opinion more pros than another CPU (phenom). These were:
- price (phenom 8230 was about ~90 eur., whilst a 9400GT costs around 50-60 eur.)
- my overall experience with ATI drivers and its bugs (flickering GUI for instance)
- the arrogance to promote a "beautiful" product which then needs a Phenom for optimal playback, were I think optimal should be standard always (so we need triple cores to watch SD content nicely? hmmm.....)
- the 9400gt does 1080i with powerdvd8 codec without any hassle, with absolutely NO cpu load (so it's completely done on its own chip, via DXVA)

I like the 4850e though, its performance on SQL server (read: TV service) is super, and it's low powered.

Hope this helps!

thanks frank. Clearly a phenom is a more expensive option than a discrete gfx, hopefully I can find discrete gfx at the low end of the market that will do the job. [I have no bias ati vs nvidia, except that obviously with current config, sticking ATI would mean no need for the hassle of total driver change. To get a -e phenom it seems I have to buy the 9150x4 which is 140GBP Cheaper phenoms seems to means no 65w option , and I am happy with the 4850e cpu in the tasks needed to run mediaportal, so prefer to stick with it if possible.

from your description I'm not 100% sure what configuration you are using for 1080i? are you saying the 9400GT will do vector adaptive on 1080i content in the gpu (hardware accell) with Pdvd8? Or do you only use coreavc on the CPU for that type of content, and if so is it doing adaptive, and what CPU load does it hit? If the second, I can try that with my current config just need to get coreavc. I do watch a lot of 1080i (BBCHD) so solving this is crucial for me. I need to get rid of Bob! BTW I can afford to dedicate my cpu totally to MP client, because I have a multiseat setup, another box is doing tv server.

cheers,
Ian

 

[frankwaan]

thanks frank. Clearly a phenom is a more expensive option than a discrete gfx, hopefully I can find discrete gfx at the low end of the market that will do the job. [I have no bias ati vs nvidia, except that obviously with current config, sticking ATI would mean no need for the hassle of total driver change. To get a -e phenom it seems I have to buy the 9150x4 which is 140GBP Cheaper phenoms seems to means no 65w option , and I am happy with the 4850e cpu in the tasks needed to run mediaportal, so prefer to stick with it if possible.

from your description I'm not 100% sure what configuration you are using for 1080i? are you saying the 9400GT will do vector adaptive on 1080i content in the gpu (hardware accell) with Pdvd8? Or do you only use coreavc on the CPU for that type of content, and if so is it doing adaptive, and what CPU load does it hit? If the second, I can try that with my current config just need to get coreavc. I do watch a lot of 1080i (BBCHD) so solving this is crucial for me. I need to get rid of Bob! BTW I can afford to dedicate my cpu totally to MP client, because I have a multiseat setup, another box is doing tv server.

cheers,
Ian

For 1080i, I use Cyberlink PDVD8. It handles 1080i very well. I watch 1080i content only via HDTV (TVServer), so it's in PAL (50fps). CoreAVC doesn't work well here, because it zooms in on the content (maybe it's related to settings). The 9400GT uses it's internal deinterlace settings (Nvidia control center) now, and it looks great, no stripes or 'shakes' at all. I only get 5-10% CPU load. So I think it's done on DXVA. I watch channels like Eurosport HD and Discovery HD.

For 1080p/720p (blurays and so on), I use CoreAVC 1.9.0 (23.976fps). The decoding is done mostly on software, but for deinterlacing I selected 'hardware' in the CoreAVC setup, so I think this part is done on hardware only. I like CoreAVC more on this content because the quality is somewhat better here.

 

[iancalderban]

For 1080i, I use Cyberlink PDVD8. It handles 1080i very well. I watch 1080i content only via HDTV (TVServer), so it's in PAL (50fps). The 9400GT uses it's internal deinterlace settings (Nvidia control center) now, and it looks great, no stripes or 'shakes' at all. I only get 5-10% CPU load. So I think it's done on DXVA. I watch channels like Eurosport HD and Discovery HD.

Thats exactly same sort of 1080i tha I am watching. I'm not familiar with nvidia's drivers in this territory, does it tell you what type of deinterlace you are getting? Or are you, from your visual test, happy that its adaptive?

However I just spent an hour googling the manufacturers , I can't see anyone makes a fanless low-profile nv9400GT. Rereading avsforums I am thinking probably ATI HD4550, as it can be had in versions that are both low-profile and fanless , and its not a lot of cash outlay either , similar to the 9400GT (lot less than a phenom!). And the time I won't have to spend changing drivers from ATI to Nvidia is worth some $ also... The various discussions on avsforum suggest that the vector adaptive does work on the 4550 card, (providing you only use one display, which is not a restriction for typical htpc user at all).

cheers,
Ian

 

[kszabo]

For 1080p/720p (blurays and so on), I use CoreAVC 1.9.0 (...) for deinterlacing I selected 'hardware' in the CoreAVC setup, so I think this part is done on hardware only.

"p" material does not need to be deinterlaced and it will not be through DXVA. Only "i" needs deinteracer.

@ian
I am really happy with my Phenom X3 8450 + onboard HD3200 combo because:
- same 1080i Pic quality as with a dedicated GFX (like HD4550 etc, thanx to HT3)
- if I wach a h.264 .mkv with subtitles (this breaks DXVA) I still have enough CPU power for software mode decoding
- transcoding of recordings and dvds (.ts or dvd to h264 mkv) goes pretty fast with the better CPU

A dedicated GFX could be better for gaming (I do not game) and can have better HDMI audio output (I use analog stereo ) so these are no arguments for me.

Imagine you buy a small CPU (X2) and a dedicated GFX card and want to use subtitles for HD-material. Or you have a h264 file which is non-DXVA compliant coded. DXVA can easily be broken! In this case the only thing what helps is a beefy CPU.

IMHO buy a Phenom II and a HD 4550 you will be on the safe side

btw a Phenom with 3 ore more cores are not needed for good 1080i, only HyperTransport 3 like a X2 with Kuma core has (=Phenom architecture), costs only 60-70 € like this: AMD Athlon X2 7750 Black Edition, 2x 2.70GHz
And the cheap 45 nm Phenom IIs are coming (also as X2) in July

 

[HakanThn]

It seems that deinterlacing is one of the key issues for good picture quality.

Hardware acceleration (DXVA) is generally not a good idea since it is easily brooken: (??)
- ffdshow raw video filter breaks DXVA
- subtitles in .mkv files breaks DXVA
=> all filtering after decoding breaks DXVA?

I can manage without DXVA with my 4850e, since I won't be watching 1080i, only 576i.

But, how do you setup a good deinterlacer in software? There are so many alternatives... ffdshow deinterlacing?, codec settings?, evr?, CCC settings...?

 

[iancalderban]

@ian
I am really happy with my Phenom X3 8450 + onboard HD3200 combo because:
- same 1080i Pic quality as with a dedicated GFX (like HD4550 etc, thanx to HT3)

thanks. Do you get vector adaptive appearing in CCC as soon as you add this CPU?

- if I wach a h.264 .mkv with subtitles (this breaks DXVA) I still have enough CPU power for software mode decoding
- transcoding of recordings and dvds (.ts or dvd to h264 mkv) goes pretty fast with the better CPU
A dedicated GFX could be better for gaming (I do not game) and can have better HDMI audio output (I use analog stereo ) so these are no arguments for me.

For me - I don't ever watch subtitles (I guess thats the difference of being native english, films already in my language) so thats a don't care for me. Lip-sync on the other hand does matter, but thats another story. Transcoding/ re-rendering if I need to do it I do offline anyway on my tv server box. I don't game either, and I use SPDIF coax for my audio (made my own for this mobo using basic parts from an electronics store). I found HDMI audio totally unreliable.

btw a Phenom with 3 ore more cores are not needed for good 1080i, only HyperTransport 3 like a X2 with Kuma core has (=Phenom architecture), costs only 60-70 € like this: AMD Athlon X2 7750 Black Edition, 2x 2.70GHz
And the cheap 45 nm Phenom IIs are coming (also as X2) in July

Of course, I'm also concerned about power (=heat = more cooling needed = more noise) budget. So I don't want to put in a 95w TDP CPU to replace a 45W one. Can't find any -e phenom (and neither is the 7750) apart from the top-end (9350e) which is overkill / too expensive. the 8250e / 8450e seem not to exist any more. If this had been some months ago, knowing what I know now, maybe I would have got an 8250e instead of my 4850e. Such is life! On the other approach, ATI HD4550 seems like its only adding 20-25W to my TDP instead. I just need to find one passive+lowprofile. This card SAPPHIRE HD 4550 512MB DDR3 PCI-E 1G HM HDMI looks good, but can't find supplier yet.

Ian

 

[frankwaan]

For 1080i, I use Cyberlink PDVD8. It handles 1080i very well. I watch 1080i content only via HDTV (TVServer), so it's in PAL (50fps). The 9400GT uses it's internal deinterlace settings (Nvidia control center) now, and it looks great, no stripes or 'shakes' at all. I only get 5-10% CPU load. So I think it's done on DXVA. I watch channels like Eurosport HD and Discovery HD.

Thats exactly same sort of 1080i tha I am watching. I'm not familiar with nvidia's drivers in this territory, does it tell you what type of deinterlace you are getting? Or are you, from your visual test, happy that its adaptive?

However I just spent an hour googling the manufacturers , I can't see anyone makes a fanless low-profile nv9400GT. Rereading avsforums I am thinking probably ATI HD4550, as it can be had in versions that are both low-profile and fanless , and its not a lot of cash outlay either , similar to the 9400GT (lot less than a phenom!). And the time I won't have to spend changing drivers from ATI to Nvidia is worth some $ also... The various discussions on avsforum suggest that the vector adaptive does work on the 4550 card, (providing you only use one display, which is not a restriction for typical htpc user at all).

cheers,
Ian

Ian,

Just to add: here's the card that I got: MSI -- MICRO-STAR INT'L CO., LTD.

About the question if a phenom CPU (HT3.0) will enable VA deinterlacing instantly: yes it does. I replaced a CPU on another HTPC a few months ago somewhere else, and VA was instantly available (also without the registry hacks). This is the proper way to enable it on the HD3200, because the registry hack with the 4850e really doesn't work... You'll get a lot of dropped frames, which is already seen on SD (DVD / DVB-C).

Again, the 9400GT solution works perfectly for me, it resolved a lot of issues for me. If you CAN get a fanless solution, I would really recommend it. Though this might be out of the scope of the thread ofcourse

Good luck again.

Greets, Frank

 

[iancalderban]

just to inform my conclusion on this one. I stuck with the 4850e cpu and I got one of these , passive and low profile 4550 cards.
and all I had to do (from my Integrated graphics configuration) was physically insert the 4550 , reboot a couple of times, then configure CCC. Same drivers (catalyst 8.12) worked without reinstall. Deinterlace with Vector adaptive is automatically enabled , no registry tweaking required. 1080i material is now working very nicely indeed, with VA deinterlace, PQ is much improved. Total changeover time 10 minutes.
only fiddle is the overscan/ pixel-mapping behaviour is different on this 4550 card. The integrated graphics with CCC set to 0% underscan, with 0% overscan on my tv (aka 1:1 dot-by-dot mode) worked perfectly. With the 4550 card something is different, will need to do some tweaking to get the picture size just right.
Ian

 

[Spragleknas]

Got myself this board, and made noted something interesting:

I first found that picture via HDMI was crap. Tried DVI, and found it be much better. After fiddling around (who doesn't when they got new HW ), I found that picture via HDMI was as good as DVI if VGA/DVI was set in BIOS (not VGA/HDMI).

Might just be my telly (Tatung aka Goodman 42" 1080p), but I failed to get 1:1 pixelmapping when VGA/HDMI was set in BIOS (meaning that CCC gave HDMI options), as picture was clearly scaled to fit, when it should just fit. Telly reported picture to be 1080p, though ...