PMT Pid wasn't found on the PAT. (1 Viewer)

[powermarcel10]

Hi @mm1352000, it's me again.. Now with a new tv card setup, so I hope I can get some support with this.

I have bought 2 digital devices DuoFlex C2T2 with a Digital devices octopus CI and an alphacrypt classic module.

One of the major problems is that I have a lot of times this in my log:

"PMT Pid wasn't found on the PAT. Channel may have moved, try a new channel scan."

When I do a new scan, it's fine for some hours, but after some time, I can't acces some channels anymore, and this will come back in my logs..

Logfiles are included.. Any idea what this can be?

Cheers,
Marcel

 

[mm1352000]

Hi Marcel

First thing to say: this seems to be a different problem than what you were previously experiencing.

In the latest log I see the error with FOX HD:
[2015-05-11 21:08:59,948] [Log ] [28 ] [INFO ] - dvbc: TuneVBC:tv:Ziggo FOX HD Freq:658000 ONID:1536 TSID:2106 SID:19563 PMT:0xA28 FTA:False LCN:935 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam

If I look back through the older log files, the last time that I see FOX HD is when it was found in a scan:
[2015-05-11 16:43:33,294] [Log ] [9 ] [INFO ] - dvbc: ScanVBC:tv: Freq:658000 ONID:-1 TSID:-1 SID:-1 PMT:0xFFFFFFFF FTA:False LCN:10000 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam
...
[2015-05-11 16:43:53,494] [Log ] [9 ] [INFO ] - 2) 0x600 0x83A 0x4C6B 0xA28 FOX HD type:19
[2015-05-11 16:43:53,494] [Log ] [9 ] [INFO ] - Found: DVBC:tv:Ziggo FOX HD Freq:658000 ONID:1536 TSID:2106 SID:19563 PMT:0xA28 FTA:False LCN:935 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam

At first impression that looks good, because the tuning attempt is using the tuning details found in the scan. However, if I look closer I see that another "FOX HD" was found at about the same time by a different tuner in a different scan on a different frequency!?!
[2015-05-11 16:43:30,484] [Log ] [44 ] [INFO ] - dvbc: ScanVBC:tv: Freq:618000 ONID:-1 TSID:-1 SID:-1 PMT:0xFFFFFFFF FTA:False LCN:10000 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam
...
[2015-05-11 16:43:35,694] [Log ] [44 ] [INFO ] - 2) 0x600 0x83A 0x4C6B 0xA28 FOX HD type:19
[2015-05-11 16:43:35,694] [Log ] [44 ] [INFO ] - Found: DVBC:tv:Ziggo FOX HD Freq:618000 ONID:1536 TSID:2106 SID:19563 PMT:0xA28 FTA:False LCN:935 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam

Surely only one of these - 618 MHz or 658 MHz - can be correct.
If I continue to look back, it seems like 618 MHz is the correct frequency:
[2015-05-11 16:10:40,826] [Log ] [36 ] [INFO ] - Controller: find free card for channel FOX HD
...
[2015-05-11 16:10:40,866] [Log ] [36 ] [INFO ] - dvbc: TuneVBC:tv:Ziggo FOX HD Freq:618000 ONID:1536 TSID:2106 SID:19563 PMT:0xA28 FTA:False LCN:935 SymbolRate:6900 Modulation:Mod256Qam
...
[2015-05-11 16:10:42,366] [Log ] [36 ] [INFO ] - card: WaitForFile - video and audio are seen after 1,0900015 seconds

Therefore, the reason for the PMT errors in this specific example is that your current tuning details for FOX HD are incorrect. Frequency is set to 658 MHz... but it should be 618 MHz.

I can also say that the scan somehow has given you these incorrect tuning details. I don't know for sure how that happened... but I suspect it may be something to do with scanning 2 tuners at the same time... because the 2 versions of FOX HD were found at approximately the same time. Perhaps the second tuner (ID 8) is only receiving signal by interference from the first tuner (ID 6)? I mean, I see that you have disabled 2 of your 4 tuners... perhaps because you have not been able to connect the second duoflex (splitter required)... but perhaps you have disabled the wrong tuner(s) by mistake?

My advice to you would be:

1. Delete all channels.
2. Do a full scan with one tuner. From your logs, I recommend tuner 6. It seems to be finding the correct details, where tuner 8 was not.
   
3. After the scan, map all found channels to your other tuners.
4. Test each tuner carefully (disable all other tuners while testing) to see if it is working.

If you still have problems after that, please let me know.

Regards,
mm

 

[powermarcel10]

Thanks for you fast reply and great suggestions, it's higly appriciated.

I have both tunercards (and both have 2 tuners on board) connected to the CI module allready, but I was allready playing a bit with enabling/disabling some tuners to see if it made any difference.

First thing is that I'm not completely sure how to connect my cable to this cards.. There are four imputs.

(This 2 times)

As you can see it has different connections.. I think one male and one female? The thing is, I have only one cable to my htpc, and that one only fits in the uppest connection. I thought that this was the connection for tuner one and two, and that the bottom one an output wich can be used to link the signal from card one to two.
I received also a kind of bridge with the card with two connectors, so I connected it to the other connector (the bottom one from the image above) to the other card..

This way I'm getting signal to 3 of the four tuners. BUT when I record a stream with card 1, the quality with card 2 is very bad. Card three is fine again but card four didn't get any signal. Signal strength and quality is 100% with card 1, 2 and 3. I checked this under manual control in tv server configuration and I found out that card 2 is having a lot of 'Discontinuties' while card 1 and 3 having zero of these..

Maybe I have to connect all four connections using a dedicated cable using a good splitter? Maybe you have some good advice.. So to be clear; tuner 2 is getting a dedicated cable, and there is a kind of bridge between tuner on and three. If it's not clear, I can make a picture if you want.

So, that for the hardware side, now about the software side:

I did what you said; Deleted all tv and radio channels, disabled tuner 2, 3 and 4, and did a full scan with card 1.

With this, I'm able to watch all channels!

Thans I copied all channels to the other cards after I enabled them and than enabled them one by one. Card 1 2 and 3 are able now to play all channels including Fox HD and some others that didn't work before! Now I hope it will be fine tomorrow as well as I was able to play these channels before for some time.. Fingers crossed!

Thanks again, and maybe you have some more advice about the first points..

Here is also a TSWriter.log file where I played three streams, so you can see the 'Discontinuties' of card two.. Excuse me that the file is so big!

Cheers,
Marcel

 

[mm1352000]

Hello again Marcell

Thanks for you fast reply and great suggestions, it's higly appriciated.

No problem.

Before I say anything more...
When I say "card" I mean a DuoFlex (which has 2 tuners); when I say "tuner", I mean one of the 2 tuners on a DuoFlex card.

As you can see it has different connections.. I think one male and one female? The thing is, I have only one cable to my htpc, and that one only fits in the uppest connection. I thought that this was the connection for tuner one and two, and that the bottom one an output wich can be used to link the signal from card one to two.
I received also a kind of bridge with the card with two connectors, so I connected it to the other connector (the bottom one from the image above) to the other card..

AFAIK all of this is correct/fine.

This way I'm getting signal to 3 of the four tuners.

Actually I would have said you're getting signal to all 4 tuners.
The top connector is the female one. It is the signal input for both tuners on the DuoFlex card.
The bottom connector is the male one. It is a signal/loop output, like a built-in splitter.

It is absolutely okay to use the male connector to connect the second card. However, note that the signal strength/quality on some/all tuners will be reduced, same as with any splitter. You need to ensure that your incoming signal strength/quality is sufficient to allow splitting in this way (ie. an amplifier may be required).

Also note that the male connector may not be active when the tuners on the card are idle. In other words, the tuners on the second card (connected with the "bridge") may not receive signal unless one/both of the tuners on the first card are active.

Maybe I have to connect all four connections using a dedicated cable using a good splitter?

Definitely not.
You only need to connect the female connectors on each card, and it is okay to use the bridge to connect the second card. However (like I said above), you need to make sure that the cable coming to your PC has sufficient signal strength/quality.

Do you have another splitter somewhere in your house? ...for example, a splitter that enables you to connect a TV as well as your PC.

BUT when I record a stream with card 1, the quality with card 2 is very bad. Card three is fine again but card four didn't get any signal. Signal strength and quality is 100% with card 1, 2 and 3. I checked this under manual control in tv server configuration and I found out that card 2 is having a lot of 'Discontinuties' while card 1 and 3 having zero of these..

Hmmmm. If I were you, I would...

1. Ensure that you haven't received a card with bad tuner(s).
Temporarily disconnect the second DuoFlex card (completely remove it), and test the first card:

• each tuner independently
  • only 1 tuner timeshifting/recording at any time
  • other tuner disabled
• both tuners together
  • both tuners timeshifting/recording channels from different frequencies at the same time

Remember that you only need to connect the female connector to supply signal to both tuners on the card.
Repeat this same process for the second DuoFlex (with the first DuoFlex removed).

If one tuner gives discontinuities then perhaps your signal strength/quality is not good enough to share between the 4 tuners. Try to add an amplifier or remove other splitters [temporarily] and see if it improves the situation.

If one tuner does not work at all (no signal on all frequencies), it may be a bad tuner/card... and in this case you should contact DD for a replacement under warranty.


2. Find out which tuner is on each card.
Assuming both tuners on both DuoFlex cards are okay, connect both cards again.
Don't forget the power connector on each card.
Don't connect the signal to the second card (ie. don't use the bridge).
Ensure preloading is disabled for all tuners (...and don't enable it for any of the other tests either).

You should be able to confirm that 2 tuners - the tuners on the DuoFlex that has signal - are working, and the other 2 tuners always get "no signal".
After this, restart the TV service, swap the cable to the second card, and check that the 2 tuners that were working now get "no signal" and the 2 tuners that were not working now work fine.

Now it should be clear whether tuner 1 and 2 are the first DuoFlex or the second DuoFlex.


3. Test the adequacy of the signal strength/quality.
Connect the "bridge" again (so that all four tuners should have signal), and restart the TV service.

Using manual control (so you can monitor signal strength/quality and discontinuities)...
Try to start timeshifting a channel with the first tuner on the DuoFlex that is connected with the "bridge".
Try to start timeshifting a channel on a different frequency with the second tuner on the DuoFlex that is connected with the "bridge".

If either of these fail with "no signal" or give discontinuities, I would suspect that either:

• signal strength/quality is not sufficient for splitting to the 4 tuners; try adding an amplifier or removing other splitters in your house and see if it helps
• the signal is not provided to the second card (the "bridged" one) unless one or both tuners on the first card are active

To eliminate the second possibility, restart the TV service again and...
Try to start timeshifting a channel with the first tuner on the DuoFlex that is not connected with the "bridge".
Try to start timeshifting a channel on a different frequency with the second tuner on the DuoFlex that is not connected with the "bridge".
(I expect everything to be working okay so far...)
Try to start timeshifting a channel on a third frequency with the first tuner on the DuoFlex that is connected with the "bridge".
Try to start timeshifting a channel on a fourth frequency with the second tuner on the DuoFlex that is connected with the "bridge".

If everything is working, we could guess that one/both of the tuners on the first DuoFlex need to be active before signal is supplied to the "bridged" DuoFlex. In this case, I recommend to preload and prioritise the tuners on the first DuoFlex so that the tuners on the "bridged" DuoFlex will work when required.


One thing I haven't yet talked about is the CI/CAM.
It is possible that discontinuities when more than one tuner are active could be due to hitting the limits of the CAM's decryption capabilities. I don't know about the PID/channel limits with the Alphacrypt Classic. For that reason, if possible I recommend to test with non-encrypted (free) channels and CAM removed.

Sorry for the length, but I hope it helps...

mm

 

[powermarcel10]

Hi mm,

Thank again for this superior explanation!

Before I go to try and error some more things like you suggested, I have two more questions/points:

-How accurate can MP measure the signal strength and quality of the signal? Is this accurate? In that case, nothing is wrong with the incoming signal. The first 3 tuners are having 100% for signal strenght and quality.

-Tuner 1 and 3 are working fine. So I expect that this is the first tuner from card one, and the first tuner of card two. So it seems that the split cable is doing a great job without lossing any signal. Strange thing is that tuner 2, wich is still on card 1, doesn't get a good signal as I'm getting a lot of discontinuties. That problem can't be fixed with hardware as this will be splitted it internally on the card. (the same applies for tuner 3 and 4 on card 2)

-When I open Manual control, with all 4 tuners enabled, I can click on a tuner wich I want to start a timeshift with. I click on tuner 2 and start a FTA SD channel. With this, I'm getting a lot of discontinuities, also when all other tuners are in Idle. When I start the same channel with tuner 1 or 3, everything is fine, and I'm getting zero discontinuities, while tuner 2 has a signal level and a signal quality of 100% like I said before.

I attached a short TsWriter log file where I started an FTA SD channel with tuner 2.

About your last point; I readed about that allready. My alphacrypt module i able to dycrypt 14 PID's. Actually I have no idea how to find out how many 'PID's' a channel has, but the from who I bought this tuners said that I should been able to decrypt 3 channels at the same time, and if I want to record a fourth channel, this one should be FTA.

Cheers,
Marcel

 

[mm1352000]

-How accurate can MP measure the signal strength and quality of the signal? Is this accurate? In that case, nothing is wrong with the incoming signal. The first 3 tuners are having 100% for signal strenght and quality.

It is only an indication. The actual values reported and their "accuracy" depend entirely on the tuner driver.

About the value range: there is no guarantee that the range is 0..100 (ie. a percentage). Many drivers - I think including DD - do report that way, but some definitely do not.

About "accuracy": the values are likely to be averages, and as such they probably won't show very short glitches. Also, they'll often be "quantised" (...which means the driver may only report 0, 10, 30, 50, 80, 100, and no in-between values).

So in short: don't rely on the readings too much.

-Tuner 1 and 3 are working fine. So I expect that this is the first tuner from card one, and the first tuner of card two.

I think you're right. The suggested tests should confirm.

Note that the signal division is almost certainly equal between tuners 1 and 2, and 3 and 4. However, depending on the implementation, the splitters may be bypassed when only 1 tuner on the card is in use. Also note that cross-tuner interference can be an issue for such splitter + multi tuner designs. That's why I suggested to test each tuner on each card individually, and then also together. Testing properly is important... but quite complex to do correctly.

So it seems that the split cable is doing a great job without lossing any signal.

Due to the laws of physics, it's impossible to not lose signal strength when you introduce a splitter. Splitting signal is just like splitting a water hose. The pressure at the end of each split is a proportion of the incoming pressure, and depends on which splits are in use.

Strange thing is that tuner 2, wich is still on card 1, doesn't get a good signal as I'm getting a lot of discontinuties. That problem can't be fixed with hardware as this will be splitted it internally on the card. (the same applies for tuner 3 and 4 on card 2)

In the tests you may find that tuner 2 works okay when the second card is disconnected... and that may mean that your incoming signal strength/quality is sufficient for 2 tuners... but not 4.
...and yes, you can fix such an issue with hardware: an amplifier. In my water hose analogy, if you want to get the same water pressure at each output after a split then you need to increase the pressure at/before the input to the splitter with a valve or pump. An amplifier is the equivalent of a valve/pump for signal.

About your last point; I readed about that allready. My alphacrypt module i able to dycrypt 14 PID's. Actually I have no idea how to find out how many 'PID's' a channel has, but the from who I bought this tuners said that I should been able to decrypt 3 channels at the same time, and if I want to record a fourth channel, this one should be FTA.

The TV service, TsWriter and TsReader show various PID details if you're interested, but it's a bit complicated. TV channels have at least 2 PIDs - one for video and one for the main audio. Each additional audio language/stream is [usually] an additional PID. DVB subtitles and teletext is another 2 PIDs.

My understanding is that CAM limits may be defined by a channel count, or a PID count, or a bit-rate. If your CAM can do 14 PIDs then it may be able to decrypt up to 7 TV channels [each with 1 video stream and 1 audio stream]... or 4 TV channels [each with 1 video stream and 2 audio streams].

 

[powermarcel10]

Hi @mm1352000,

I followed up all your instuctions, and watching live tv is working reasonably well. Sometimes it is still saying that a channel is scrambled, but a stop and play is mostly working. I will upload logs of that issue later.

Most annoying thing at this moment is this:

When I do a refresh of the whole EPG (TV server settings --> Manual control --> Refresh DVB EPG) all availible data is showing up in the tv guide, so that's fine. But after a couple of days, it's only showing the program titles, but no informatoin about the programs.. Only when I do a manual refresh it will download all info again for some days. So programms are showing fine, but the program info is missing!

I think this is a really strange behaviour as it will download the program info just fine with a complete refresh!

Do you have any ideas? Some logfiles in cluded. If you need more, let me know!

Cheers,
Marcel

 

[mm1352000]

Hello Marcel

Do you have any ideas?

I guess your provider only includes the program information (descriptions etc.) on certain transmitters in order to save bandwidth.

I'm short on time so I can't give a full explanation. It is possible that if you waited a little, the descriptions would appear... because I'm pretty sure that TV Server will overwrite a program entry (eg. one without a description) if it finds a better one (eg. one with a description). It just needs more time to find the full program entries. In other words, I'm saying that what you see depends on the order that TV Server does the grabbing... and that is not something that you can configure.

Regards,
mm

 

[powermarcel10]

Hello Marcel

Do you have any ideas?

I guess your provider only includes the program information (descriptions etc.) on certain transmitters in order to save bandwidth.

I'm short on time so I can't give a full explanation. It is possible that if you waited a little, the descriptions would appear... because I'm pretty sure that TV Server will overwrite a program entry (eg. one without a description) if it finds a better one (eg. one with a description). It just needs more time to find the full program entries. In other words, I'm saying that what you see depends on the order that TV Server does the grabbing... and that is not something that you can configure.

Regards,
mm

Thanks.

I have tried it again. Do a refresh, waiting for a while, and for one day the EPG is filles fully with program titles AND program info. But after one day, it only contains the program title, and the program info is gone.. I can wait and wait, but it doess't grab the program information anymore. Tried that allready a lot of times.. This is strange behavior isn't it? Should I try to enable EPG grabbing only for one channel? IIRC, channel one (NPO 1) contains all availible EPG information for all channels. So I will see what happend if I do a refresh with only that channel enabled for EPG grabbing.

Any other suggestion is very welcome!

 

[mm1352000]

This is strange behavior isn't it?

No, I don't think so. It's probably just due to a combination of your provider and your EPG grabber settings.

Should I try to enable EPG grabbing only for one channel? IIRC, channel one (NPO 1) contains all availible EPG information for all channels.

If one channel has information for all channels then correct EPG grabber configuration would be:

1. Tick only that channel. Untick all other radio and TV channels.
2. Untick "store data only for selected channels" for both TV and radio.
3. Untick "grab EPG only for channels on same transponder".

Ticking all channels will lead to unnecessary power use, wear and tear on your tuner(s), and may not allow your PC to sleep (if you use the idle grabber).