Cine S2 with CI does not work (4 Viewers)

[mm1352000]

FYI: morpheus_xx developed the support for DD tuners in MP. He is still active, but mostly focussed on MP2. The EMMs are usually handled automatically by the CAM as long as the stream is passed to the CAM. This is something that we have no control over for DD cards - all the control is in the drivers. The fancy CAM sharing implementation in the driver is probably only passing a minimal set of PIDs (audio, video, subtitles/txt) to minimise the load on the CAM and maximise the number of channels that can be decrypted simultaneously.

mm

 

[lulsam]

FYI: morpheus_xx developed the support for DD tuners in MP. He is still active, but mostly focussed on MP2. The EMMs are usually handled automatically by the CAM as long as the stream is passed to the CAM. This is something that we have no control over for DD cards - all the control is in the drivers.

That makes sense to me, it seems like the way a soft cam works, in fact.

The fancy CAM sharing implementation in the driver is probably only passing a minimal set of PIDs (audio, video, subtitles/txt) to minimise the load on the CAM and maximise the number of channels that can be decrypted simultaneously.

This part is what confuses me a bit: if your statement is correct, why two different users with basically the same setup have different results (one with EMM updates and the other not)? Maybe because the slightly different hw revision makes the difference? I am assuming that they are both using the latest drivers available.

Sorry for asking so much, but this is not trivial investment decission (+300€); especially if it doens't work properly

Kind rgds

 

[mm1352000]

Hi again

The fancy CAM sharing implementation in the driver is probably only passing a minimal set of PIDs (audio, video, subtitles/txt) to minimise the load on the CAM and maximise the number of channels that can be decrypted simultaneously.

This part is what confuses me a bit: if your statement is correct, why two different users with basically the same setup have different results (one with EMM updates and the other not)?

If you're comparing Romjin's results with DjeC64 then I think either you or I have misunderstood. My understanding was that DjeC64 is only able to decrypt one channel with his CAM, whereas Romjin is able to decrypt at least two. That has nothing to do with the EMM updates - it is probably to do with the CAMs being slightly different (HW revision, FW revision... who knows).

Romjin has said that he still has to put his smartcard/CAM in a regular receiver every now and then because the EMM updates are not being received by his CAM (comment -->here<--). I have not seen DjeC64 mention that, but I would guess that the same situation applies for him... and the same would apply for you. My guess is that this is caused by the MTD implementation as I tried to explain. Let me try to explain again with more detail...

You can think of a CAM as a small CPU. One of the tasks of this CPU is to decrypt channels. When the CAM is asked to decrypt a channel, it must decrypt each of the elementary streams that make the channel - the video stream, the audio stream(s), the subtitles etc. Each of those elementary streams is associated with a different PID (eg. video PID = 100, AC3/DD audio PID = 200, MPEG audio PID = 201).

To decrypt a channel successfully, the CAM must be powerful enough to decrypt all of the elementary streams (or PIDs) simultaneously. Some CAMs have more powerful "CPUs" than others - the more powerful the CAM, the more PIDs it can decrypt (and therefore, the more channels it can decrypt simultaneously).

With a "normal" tuner (such as the FloppyDTV, or a TBS, KNC, TechniSat/Twinhan/TerraTec, Technotrend etc. with CI slot extention), I think the whole transport stream is passed through the CAM and the CAM decrypts the streams that it is instructed to decrypt. The CAM has access to the EMM streams in the transport stream so it can update the subscription.

With DD MTD, the CAM is shared between multiple tuners. Each tuner can ask the CAM to decrypt one channel. The CAM does not seem to receive the full transport stream from each of the tuners because that would overload the CAM. Instead, the driver passes only the critical streams (video, audio, subtitles) associated with the channels that the CAM must decrypt (this does not seem to include the EMM streams, and that is why the subscription is not updated automatically).

With both a "normal" tuner and a DD tuner, the CAM processing power is still the limitation. If the CAM can only decrypt 4 elementary streams then you can only decrypt 1 (or at most 2) TV channels simultaneously. If the CAM can decrypt 8 elementary streams, then you might get as many as 4 channels decrypted simultaneously. It depends on the channels - how many audio and subtitles streams they have.

Sorry for asking so much, but this is not trivial investment decission (+300€); especially if it doens't work properly

I fully understand that. Unfortunately nobody can guarantee anything for you. I think the issue is mostly finding a good CAM. In my experience, some CAMs are simply not compatible with some tuners. I have two CAMs - 1 CAM works with half of my tuners, the other CAM also works with only half. TBS, Anysee and NetUP tuners are the only tuners that have been able to work with both CAMs. I've tried:
- FloppyDTV S2 (can decrypt multiple channels with CAM 1)
- WinTV CI (can decrypt one channel with CAM 1)
- KNC TV-Station DVB-S2 (can decrypt multiple channels with CAM 1)
- TechniSat SkyStar HD2 [same as TerraTec Cinergy S2 and Azurewave/Twinhan AD-SP400] (can decrypt one channel with CAM 2)
- TechnoTrend Budget S2-3200 (can decrypt one channel with CAM 2)

My comments probably won't help you make a decision, but at least you might have more of a picture of how much risk is involved.

mm

 

[lulsam]

This is one of the most clear and instructing post I read. Probably it points me very close to make a decission because the key part is the CAM, not the tuner.

If I read correctly all the thread, DjeC64 does not need to plug the card back into the STB to get the EMM updates, but as you explained this could be because the CAM not being able to process enough number of PIDs => to get everything working maybe is a matter of invest in a powerful CAM. The spanish DVBS provider uses SECA2 (for SD channels which is my current subscription) so I think Aston is my only one choice (not cheap models btw). There are people here using more CAMs (like DiabloCAM, for instance), but it seems to be with linux based STBs (Dreambox mainly) and I found a guy that took the risk to check that CAM with a PC-tuner without success

Great post, thanks again.

Manolo

 

[Bitkeeper]

Hi,

also facing issues with DD and CAM setup: everything working fine but channel decryption does not work. Was digging through all these discussions in the forums and tried a lot of things but after 2 days of experimenting I am shortly to give up :-(

When I try to preview encrypted channel in TV Server Configuration ([Manual Control], [Start TimeShift]) message "Channel is scrambled" appears. Watching FTA works like a charm.

(Debug) Log files do not show any issues.

DigitalDevices Cine S2 v6, latest driver 2.4.0.60
DigitalDevices CI Interface
CAM: SMIT Irdeto (directly ordered from hdaustria.at); preactivated/registered already
CAM only activated in DDConfig and in MePo for 1 tuner with limit of 1.
Mediaportal v1.2.3 on Win7 64bit

It might sound stupid, but is it possible that CAM and/or card might be inserted with the wrong orientation? I mean, chipcard with chip on wrong side vs. CAM in CI module top-down? I can't see in the log files if they are working or not!?

Does anybody see the issue?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[legnod]

Hi Bitkeeper,

i think theres something wrong with your Configuration inside the DD dricer config.
Your CAM isnt recognized correctly. You can see how it should look like if its OK inside the screenshot below.



So your Problem shouldnt be related to MP.

EDIT: Have you checked the powersupply of the CI module? Make sure that the smartcard and the CI is plugged in correctly.

 

[Bitkeeper]

Thanks legnod for your quick help!

Indeed, this helped at least to find out that the CAM was inserted upside-down; now it looks correct. But still encrypted channels can not be decrypted.

New log files attached. Still I can not see any helping error message in there... besides "2012-09-01 16:20:58.477539 [Digital Devices CiMenuHandler(11)]: CI menu received but no listeners available"....

Saw this error message in another thread but cant find it anymore...

 

[legnod]

Can you open up the CI menu inside the DD config tool? Click Options and wait a few seconds...

 

[Bitkeeper]

Yes, no problems there. Works also fine in MP Server Config.

 

[legnod]

Ok now this part seems to be working...have you tried to enable the CI for the second tuner inside the DD config tool?
Enable the CI inside MP config as well...just for testing. Are you sure that your smarcard is activated correctly? e.g a SKY smartcard need some time on a specific channel till its working. Which provider is your card form?have they made any suggestions for card activation?