Hauppauge HD-PVR & Colossus Support (5 Viewers)

[mm1352000]

Hi GoldenEye

Yes, I notice you've been following closely. And *thank you* for your patience. I puzzled over your earlier logs for several hours earlier in the week without being able to find anything particularly wrong and I meant to give you a response. I've looked again at the logs you just posted, and once again I can't see anything wrong. My suspicion is that many of the issues that you're seeing are related to the switching between AAC and AC3 audio. Although TV Server and MediaPortal handle things as best as they can, a lot of the ability to do the audio switching well and smoothly will actually depend on the codecs that you use.

As I type this I'm wondering particularly about what happens if you pick an AC3 channel first. You've shown examples of AAC->AAC and AAC->AC3 transitions, but I'm missing the other two transitions - AC3->AC3 and AAC->AC3. What happens with those scenarios? The Microsoft codecs are really convenient because they come pre-installed, but actually they're not always the best and they're not always going to work. In particular with AC3:

Note 1. The Microsoft implementation of the Dolby Digital technology is restricted under terms of the Dolby Digital licensing program to use by Microsoft applications.

Source: Microsoft MPEG-1/DD/AAC Audio Decoder (Windows)

To me that means that the Microsoft audio codec can't be used for decoding AC3 outside of Microsoft software. Having said that, I don't use Windows 7 at all so I'm going to have to take Microsoft's word for it. Even if it does actually work in MP, I suggest you try FFDShow (@WileE: that's what you're using isn't it?) or AC3Filter (which is what I use - works brilliantly for my live TV, but keep in mind that I don't have a Colossus or HDPVR to test with...).

So just to reiterate again: from my perspective really all I can suggest is to try different codecs. Audio codecs in particular. I've given you some examples of good free AC3 ones - I should also tell you about the DivX AAC decoder, which from all that I've read is quite good at handling live HE-AAC/AAC-LC streams. You can get it for free from here ("free download" banner, top right hand corner of the page). Please have a go with some of these and let us know how you get on...

@sjeffery: the crashing issue that you mentioned has been on my mind too - have you tried the latest binaries that I posted?

@<everyone>: I'd like to think that many of you are happy and have your systems running smoothly by now. The sorts of problems that are starting to crop up seem to be more to do with configuration, epg and codecs. Certainly I'm not aware of any further outstanding *code* issues (I'm ignoring my binary building failures ). As I've already said, I don't actually have a Colossus or HDPVR, so I'm finding it difficult to speak with any authority about the things that GoldenEye (for example) is having trouble with. If you have things working (or even if you don't) then I need you to help each other out with advice about what is working best for you. Also, please do raise anything (even the small things) that you are still having trouble with. Chances are that if you're having trouble then someone else will be experiencing the same thing, and it could be a bug. Together we can resolve these things and make sure that 1.2.0 final is as stable as it can possibly be for all Colossus and HDPVR owners.

 

[shamus252]

Menu's seem good now going to test some more tho had maybe 1 lock up 30 min's or so time.

Good to hear - let me know if you have any further trouble...

Also I don't know if this is related to the patch or not, but when I change channels I get sound distortion and popping for a sec.

Are your channels all AC3/DD, or all AAC? You're only using the RCA L/R in aren't you?

Also today started in with HD channels freezing.

Was this happening before?

It doesn't crash MP but I have to exit out from watching and re-enable. <--- does this on HD channels only, SD channels are fine. Also HD channels come in on tv server config in preview just not in MP. Might be a setting I change or something tho I don't know

That would indicate that it is a codec setting issue. Preview uses the codecs with the highest merit in the system whereas viewing in MediaPortal uses the codecs that you specify in MP configuration. Unless you know how to manipulate codec merits using software like Filmerit or through GraphStudio etc. I would *strongly* recommend that you do your testing with the MP client. Double check your h.264 video setting in MediaPortal configuration...

mm

No menu hangs yet today.
I changed few days ago to SPDIF on audio.
Changed to ffdshow, now HD channels come in. Was using Cyberlink codex for some reason.
Changed audio to preferred AC3, still getting popping when changing channels.

 

[mm1352000]

No menu hangs yet today.

I changed few days ago to SPDIF on audio.

Okay, good to know.

Changed to ffdshow, now HD channels come in. Was using Cyberlink for some reason.

Cyberlink aren't bad - I use their video codec, but like I said to GoldenEye: sometimes it is a matter of codec trial and error where some will work and some won't.

Changed audio to preferred AC3, still getting popping when changing channels.

But after the popping the audio plays okay?
Popping indicates a discontinuity in the stream, and that is exactly what we expect since the stream will drop out while the STB changes channel. There is no way to avoid it that I am aware of. Remember that TV Server doesn't actually know when the blaster tells the STB to change channel or when the STB has finished changing channel...

 

[GoldenEye]

Hi GoldenEye

Yes, I notice you've been following closely. And *thank you* for your patience. I puzzled over your earlier logs for several hours earlier in the week without being able to find anything particularly wrong and I meant to give you a response. I've looked again at the logs you just posted, and once again I can't see anything wrong. My suspicion is that many of the issues that you're seeing are related to the switching between AAC and AC3 audio. Although TV Server and MediaPortal handle things as best as they can, a lot of the ability to do the audio switching well and smoothly will actually depend on the codecs that you use.

As I type this I'm wondering particularly about what happens if you pick an AC3 channel first. You've shown examples of AAC->AAC and AAC->AC3 transitions, but I'm missing the other two transitions - AC3->AC3 and AAC->AC3. What happens with those scenarios? The Microsoft codecs are really convenient because they come pre-installed, but actually they're not always the best and they're not always going to work. In particular with AC3:

Note 1. The Microsoft implementation of the Dolby Digital technology is restricted under terms of the Dolby Digital licensing program to use by Microsoft applications.

Source: Microsoft MPEG-1/DD/AAC Audio Decoder (Windows)

To me that means that the Microsoft audio codec can't be used for decoding AC3 outside of Microsoft software. Having said that, I don't use Windows 7 at all so I'm going to have to take Microsoft's word for it. Even if it does actually work in MP, I suggest you try FFDShow (@WileE: that's what you're using isn't it?) or AC3Filter (which is what I use - works brilliantly for my live TV, but keep in mind that I don't have a Colossus or HDPVR to test with...).

So just to reiterate again: from my perspective really all I can suggest is to try different codecs. Audio codecs in particular. I've given you some examples of good free AC3 ones - I should also tell you about the DivX AAC decoder, which from all that I've read is quite good at handling live HE-AAC/AAC-LC streams. You can get it for free from here ("free download" banner, top right hand corner of the page). Please have a go with some of these and let us know how you get on...

mm, thanks a ton for you post, which is very helpful to me.

Before running two additional tests I'd like to check whether I understand MP and TV server correctly.

Two questions

(Q1) As far as I understand,
- my cable provider's video and audio signals enter the Colossus
- MP TV server's tswriter writes the audio and video streams to the HDD (independent of the format)
- MP's tsreader reads the "stream" aka TS file(s) from the HDD and identifies the format
- MP connects the "stream" aka TS file(s) to the codec chosen in MP configuration
- the codec tranlates the "stream" and forwards it to the audio/video interface

Correct?

(Q2) You explained that according to the logs, everything works as expected and seems to be normal. In the logs, I see a lot of audio and video continuity errors and related late frame compensation. Is this really normal in a good environment? As far as I understand, this tells me that I have some latency, which surprises me as I am running MP and TV server on the same machine during my test.

Do I understand this correctly?


Test 1

Here are the two additional tests. The attached logs represent the following steps which include the one missing channel change (AC3 --> AC3 was already covered in my test). In order to change the setup as less as possible, I deliberately chose the same codecs as in my previous test in my first test:

Mediaportal TV decoder settings:
- MPEG-2 Video decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
- H.264 Video decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
- MPEG/AC3 audio decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Audio Decoder
- LATM AAC Audio decoder: MONOGRAM AAC Decoder
- DD+ Audio decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Audio Decoder


I performed the following steps (log: 20110605_MPLogs.rar):

- Starting TV Service, start MP, Access EPG

(1) Accessing channel "Planet"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: Everyhing works fine.

*** AAC --> AAC ***
(2) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Nat Geo Wild"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: Sound sometimes crackling, Stuttering picture.

*** AAC --> AC3 ***
(3) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Nat Geo HD"
-- ShowBiz says Dolby Digital (AC3) 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MS DTV-DVD Audio Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use (Connection between MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder / Line 21 Decoder 2 broken)
-- RESULT: No sound, Perfect picture.

*** AC3 --> AC3 ***
(4) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Discovery HD"
-- ShowBiz says Audio: Dolby Digital (AC3) 5.1 channels
-- Graphedit shows MS DTV-DVD Audio Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use (Connection between MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder / Line 21 Decoder 2 broken)
-- RESULT: No sound, Perfect picture.

*** AC3 --> AAC ***
(5) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Planet"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: WORSE THAN (1)! Sound sometimes crackling, STUTTERING PICTURE.

- Going back to home, turning TV off, closing MP

FINDING:
- AC3 --> AAC provokes a stuttering picture on a channel which ran fine before.


Test 2

Now an additional test with different audio codecs (20110605_MPLogs_2.rar).

Mediaportal TV decoder settings:
- MPEG-2 Video decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
- H.264 Video decoder: Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
- MPEG/AC3 audio decoder: ffdshow Audio Decoder
- LATM AAC Audio decoder: MONOGRAM AAC Decoder
- DD+ Audio decoder: ffdshow Audio Decoder



(1) Accessing channel "Planet"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: Everyhing works fine.

*** AAC --> AAC ***
(2) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Nat Geo Wild"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: Sound sometimes crackling, Stuttering picture. Sound ok, No stuttering.

*** AAC --> AC3 ***
(3) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Nat Geo HD"
-- ShowBiz says Dolby Digital (AC3) 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows ffdshow Audio Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use (Connection between MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder / Line 21 Decoder 2 broken)
-- RESULT: No sound, Perfect picture. Sound ok, perfect picture.

*** AC3 --> AC3 ***
(4) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Discovery HD"
-- ShowBiz says Audio: Dolby Digital (AC3) 5.1 channels
-- Graphedit shows ffdshow Audio Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use (Connection between MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder / Line 21 Decoder 2 broken)
-- RESULT: No sound, Perfect picture. Sound ok, perfect picture.

*** AC3 --> AAC ***
(5) Going back to EPG, accessing channel "Planet"
-- ShowBiz says AAC 2 channels
-- Graphedit shows MONOGRAM AAC Decoder, MS DTV-DVD Video Decoder in use
-- RESULT: WORSE THAN (1)! Sound sometimes crackling, STUTTERING PICTURE. Sound ok, picture ok.

- Going back to home, turning TV off, closing MP

FINDINGS:
- As expected, the sound is now ok on all channels.
- Interestingly, test (5) is now ok although I did not change any settings in the video decoder. This lets me assume that there can be interdependencies between audio and video codecs. (Q3) Is this possible?

Now, it's time to run the test on the MP installation on my client.

I'd appreciate if you could answers my three questions (Q1, Q2, Q3).

Thanks a lot, G.

 

[mm1352000]

Hi GoldenEye

In answer to your questions:

(Q1) As far as I understand,
- my cable provider's video and audio signals enter the Colossus
- MP TV server's tswriter writes the audio and video streams to the HDD (independent of the format)
- MP's tsreader reads the "stream" aka TS file(s) from the HDD and identifies the format
- MP connects the "stream" aka TS file(s) to the codec chosen in MP configuration
- the codec tranlates the "stream" and forwards it to the audio/video interface

Correct?

Yes, bang on!
That is a good general explanation of what happens. There is one more thing that I'd like to add. TsReader detects encoding/format changes in the stream and notifies MP client. MP client then decides whether or not to change the codecs that are being used to decode ("translate") the stream. That is what is happening when you change between channels with streams that have different audio encodings.

(Q2) You explained that according to the logs, everything works as expected and seems to be normal. In the logs, I see a lot of audio and video continuity errors and related late frame compensation. Is this really normal in a good environment? As far as I understand, this tells me that I have some latency, which surprises me as I am running MP and TV server on the same machine during my test.

Do I understand this correctly?

I said that everything works as expected because I was focussing mostly on the TV Server side checking that the correct audio and video inputs on the crossbar were connected and audio encoding changes were detected etc. Although I generally know what happens on the client side, I don't know very much of the client side code. That is why I am able to be really helpful with TV Server issues but not so helpful with client side issues. As far as I was concerned, there were no issues on the TV Server side. On the client side, I saw the late frames and discontinuities. Many of them seemed to be clustered around the channel changes, and as I said to shamus252:

Popping indicates a discontinuity in the stream, and that is exactly what we expect since the stream will drop out while the STB changes channel.

I think you should expect to see discontinuities in the TsReader logs around channel changes as a result of what is happening with the STB. I also get a bunch of late frames while TsReader/TsWriter gets themselves settled. I consider it normal. Perhaps I am wrong...

...AC3 --> AC3 was already covered in my test...

What I meant was that I wanted to see what would happen if you started on an AC3 channel - my fault for not being clearer. At the time it seemed like everything started well and went really quickly downhill after changing channels, especially with AC3 involved. I wondered if things would work okay if you started with an AC3 channel or whether there was a general problem with AC3 decoding. As it turns out, it seems there was a general problem with the Microsoft codec handling the AC3 decoding duties...

In order to change the setup as less as possible, I deliberately chose the same codecs as in my previous test in my first test:

FINDING:
- AC3 --> AAC provokes a stuttering picture on a channel which ran fine before.

I'm not sure whether I should ignore this result considering the results in test 2. I will say that if you encounter stuttering or silence with AAC then it may be helpful to try changing the AAC codec...

Test 2

Now an additional test with different audio codecs (20110605_MPLogs_2.rar).

FINDINGS:
- As expected, the sound is now ok on all channels.

The results all seem positive to me. Does that mean problems all solved?

- Interestingly, test (5) is now ok although I did not change any settings in the video decoder. This lets me assume that there can be interdependencies between audio and video codecs. (Q3) Is this possible?

Absolutely - it is common. I don't have a good technical explanation, but you might be interested to read the first post in this thread.

Now, it's time to run the test on the MP installation on my client.

I *really* hope everything runs smoothly because I am out of my depth with streaming issues.

mm

 

[WileECoyote]

(@WileE: that's what you're using isn't it?)

I use the ffdshow codecs for all my audio (Movies, Live TV, DVD)

@<everyone>: I'd like to think that many of you are happy and have your systems running smoothly by now. The sorts of problems that are starting to crop up seem to be more to do with configuration, epg and codecs. Certainly I'm not aware of any further outstanding *code* issues (I'm ignoring my binary building failures ). As I've already said, I don't actually have a Colossus or HDPVR, so I'm finding it difficult to speak with any authority about the things that GoldenEye (for example) is having trouble with. If you have things working (or even if you don't) then I need you to help each other out with advice about what is working best for you. Also, please do raise anything (even the small things) that you are still having trouble with. Chances are that if you're having trouble then someone else will be experiencing the same thing, and it could be a bug. Together we can resolve these things and make sure that 1.2.0 final is as stable as it can possibly be for all Colossus and HDPVR owners.

My setup is running great. As far as the guide and blaster issues I think they need to address those in the appropriate threads (Not a Colossus or HD-PVR issue per-say.) I too want to help, but like you said sometimes its out of my league. I did add a link to the first post for the Hauppauge Blaster setup though

 

[shamus252]

(@WileE: that's what you're using isn't it?)

I use the ffdshow codecs for all my audio (Movies, Live TV, DVD)

@<everyone>: I'd like to think that many of you are happy and have your systems running smoothly by now. The sorts of problems that are starting to crop up seem to be more to do with configuration, epg and codecs. Certainly I'm not aware of any further outstanding *code* issues (I'm ignoring my binary building failures ). As I've already said, I don't actually have a Colossus or HDPVR, so I'm finding it difficult to speak with any authority about the things that GoldenEye (for example) is having trouble with. If you have things working (or even if you don't) then I need you to help each other out with advice about what is working best for you. Also, please do raise anything (even the small things) that you are still having trouble with. Chances are that if you're having trouble then someone else will be experiencing the same thing, and it could be a bug. Together we can resolve these things and make sure that 1.2.0 final is as stable as it can possibly be for all Colossus and HDPVR owners.

My setup is running great. As far as the guide and blaster issues I think they need to address those in the appropriate threads (Not a Colossus or HD-PVR issue per-say.) I too want to help, but like you said sometimes its out of my league. I did add a link to the first post for the Hauppauge Blaster setup though

I got my Hauppauge remote working ok using the blaster and ir32.exe from the CD. I found IRSS to cause alot of problems. But using just the Hauppauge blaster config and receiver, then checking use Hauppauge Remote in MediaPortal Configuration.

And in TV Server Configuration, enable ServerBlaster, and set it's blaster type to Hauppauge.

The audio popping when changing channels doesn't seem normal, cause I do not get it in WinTV,WMC, or Sagetv.

 

[mm1352000]

The audio popping when changing channels doesn't seem normal, cause I do not get it in WinTV,WMC, or Sagetv.

So to be very clear: in WinTV, WMC or SageTV, you start viewing the feed from your Colossus, then when you change channel on the STB there is never popping?

I have to be honest: tracking back something like this could be very difficult, and codecs could behave differently...

 

[shamus252]

The audio popping when changing channels doesn't seem normal, cause I do not get it in WinTV,WMC, or Sagetv.

So to be very clear: in WinTV, WMC or SageTV, you start viewing the feed from your Colossus, then when you change channel on the STB there is never popping?

I have to be honest: tracking back something like this could be very difficult, and codecs could behave differently...

Correct. WMC has a low humming sound with Hauppauge's driver for WMC, but with DVBLink no humming. MP is only one I get popping in, Ive tried every codex option and same on all of them. But now sence I got MP working pretty much, it's my preferred choice. Just love the App.

 

[mm1352000]

@<everyone>: Is anyone else experiencing the popping that shamus252 has mentioned?

@shamus252:
If we're going to have any hope of resolving this then we're going to need to try to figure out which discontinuity is causing the popping. It could be:
- when the STB starts the channel change
- when the STB finishes the channel change
- when the Colossus changes encoding/passthrough mode
- when physical inputs are switched
- when the client side graph is rebuilt (ie. codecs replaced)
- random Colossus encoder hiccups either during or after channel change, or even during stable viewing

Does your setup include changing inputs on the crossbar (ie. you use audio from SPDIF for some channels and audio from RCA L/R for other channels)?

Does your setup include changes in audio encoding (ie. some channels arrive at the Colossus inputs with pre-encoded DD/AC3 audio while others arrive as raw PCM [SPDIF] or analog [RCA] and are encoded to AAC by the Colossus)?

When *exactly* does it happen?
- exactly when you think the STB has changed to a new channel
- just after you think the STB has changed to a new channel (ie. when codecs are settling in)
- when MP changes channel
- randomly during playback

Does the popping *always* happen?

Is the popping sometimes more or less severe?

Correct. WMC has a low humming sound with Hauppauge's driver for WMC, but with DVBLink no humming.

Do you change channels with the blaster in WMC, WinTV and/or DVBLink, or do you just change channel on the STB?

Just love the App.

I'm glad you like it!