Quest for stutterless TV streaming .... results. (1 Viewer)

Kaween

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Hi there.

I've been trying to get Mediaportal and TVserver in a state where usable TV viewing would be possible. While I now have a stutterfree performance, I bumped into a couple of odd experiences, I'm just putting the results down here for any of you interested :

1) It would seem that certain mainboard/cpu combo's are simply impossible to get to work correctly with the current state of TVserver. I used a testbed with 4 different cpu's, mobo's and memory configs (and kept the VGA and HDD the same), (and this is completely independant of the used audio/video decoders, and independant of any build of both TVserver and Mediaportal since the last 3 weeks). Sadly I only have access to a PVR150 and a PVR150MCE, so I had no capability of looking into possible problems induced by the used TV card.

All machines got the same HDD (200 gig ATA, 7200rpm) and the same amount of memory (1.5 gig). All machines were clean installs of a legit XP pro, equiped with all available updates, net 2.0, no virusscanners nor antispyware, and for the test's sake all firewall functionality had been disabled thought the testbed.
When stutterfree playback was impossible on a given system, a second hdd was added on a seperate IDE/SATA channel (dependant of used mainboard) to exclude datarate problems from that side.

- an older Soltek I875 with a P4 2.8 was not able to get stutterfree playback
(medium sutter), the stutter became less when I'd switch to mpeg files instead of the standard TS files
- a VIA KM890 based MSI 754 was -totally- unusable : livestreaming became a slideshow of about 2 frames a second.
- an Asrock 754 GF6100 based machine did a good job, using the same processor as the VIA MSI mentioned before. No special setting was needed, it "ran out of the box".
- a SIS651 based SG71 Abit board with the same cpu as the Soltek provided totally clean and stutterfree playback, but ONLY if I completly disabled XP's virtual memory system, and kept everything in RAM. This is odd, as no other streaming solution had this kind of picky behaviour


2) Strange : whenever the playback stuttered, a test using TVservers "free recording/streaming" and capturing the result using VLC, it turned out that on the systems showing sutter, "bad frames" had been recorded on the exact times the stutter was visable.

3) Stranger : a machine which was incapable of stutterfree streaming/timeshifting would show the "bad frames" in the timeshift file, but when you chose "RECORD" instead, the resulting file was always errorfree and played back to Mediaportal without any problems.

All in all and in my humble opinion, Mediaportal itself is more or less ready for "Primetime", that's to say, people with very little knowledge can make it work. TVserver however still has a lot of work before this kind of status is achieved.

In any case, an impressive achievement so far, and I'm sure that given some time, most of the "oddities" will be solved too.
 

chrispi

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Kaween

Good test. I always thought that a lot of problems are related to different hardware configurations.

One year ago I bought two FireDTV DVB boxes for MediaPortal because I knew these were used by Frodo. Since then I did not have any problems with MediaPortal.

Perhapes the TVEngine developers can post the Hard- and Software configuration they use so it would be easier to select the right components when building a new HTPC?

Christoph
 

gemx

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    Well. that's easy.
    Just have a look directly under the icon of a team member.
    There should be a "My System" link.
    There you can see the system setup.
    Don't know if every dev entered his setup but at least me :)
     

    infinite.loop

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    well.... you all maybe should consider that the stutter problems you get are caused by:
    1. your used codecs
    2. tsfilesource filter (which will be replaced soon by tsreader.ax)

    i have tested TV-Server + MP client on maaaaaaaaaaaaaany very differnet setups (hardware). i have never ever noticed any hw related stuttering on any system.

    if your CPU load is "normal" and liveTV or playing recorded files is stuttering, then i would blame the codecs or tsfilesource or a fucked up windows or a completely outdated windows/drivers.
    but not tvserver of mediaportal. simply because i see it working on completely different systems + never heard from a team member about hw based stuttering.

    :)
     

    chrispi

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    @infinityloop:

    I have a dedicated HTPC just for MediaPortal and I will update it soon because of HDTV. Then system is running fine with MediaPortal 2.0 but I do have a lot of problems with the new TVEngine (even after a complete OS reinstallation).

    So what is the recommendation for CPU, DVB-S-Cards, Mainboard, Codecs, Operation System (Vista) to get the new TVEngine running without major problems?

    For me stabilty is more important than money.

    Reagrds,
    Christoph
     

    infinite.loop

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    So what is the recommendation for CPU, DVB-S-Cards, Mainboard, Codecs, Operation System (Vista) to get the new TVEngine running without major problems?
    well, i can tell you what works here:

    Server:
    • CPU: Athlon A64 3000+
    • RAM: 2x 512MB
    • Mainboard: ASUS A8N-VM CSM
    • Video-Card: onboard
    • OS: WindowsXP XP2 + all windowsupdates + hotfixes mentioned in wiki (manual -> requirements)
    • TV-Card1: Hauppauge Nova-T USB2 Stick
    • TV-Card2: Hauppauge NOVA-HD- S2 (dvb-s2 part still buggy because of a driver bug)
    • TV-Card3: Skystar2 dvb-s (with BDA drivers)
    • TV-Card4: floppydtv-CI dvb-s
    • HDDs:
      • 1x 120GB for Windows + applications
      • 1x RAID5 with 3x 500GB Seagate SATA 720rpm for videos, pictures, music other data
      • 1x 320GB for backups and TV-Server timeshiftbuffer files

    Client 1: for HD playback
    • CPU: Core2Duo 6600
    • RAM: 2x 1024MB
    • Mainboard: ASUS P5W DH Deluxe
    • Video-Card: ATI X800XT
    • OS: WindowsXP XP2 + all windowsupdates + hotfixes mentioned in wiki (manual -> requirements)

    Client 2: for SD playback
    • CPU: Athlon 2100+
    • RAM: 2x 512MB
    • Mainboard: Shuttlebarebone SK43G
    • Video-Card: nvidia gforce6600gt
    • OS: WindowsXP XP2 + all windowsupdates + hotfixes mentioned in wiki (manual -> requirements)

    Client 3: for SD playback
    • CPU: Athlon 3000+
    • RAM: 2x 512MB
    • Mainboard: some VIA mainboard, no clue which brand :)
    • Video-Card: ATI radeon 9700
    • OS: WindowsXP XP2 + all windowsupdates + hotfixes mentioned in wiki (manual -> requirements)

    Client 4: for SD playback
    • CPU: Pentium4 2.8GHz
    • RAM: 2x 512MB
    • Mainboard: some Intel mainboard, no clue which model :)
    • OS: WindowsXP XP2 + all windowsupdates + hotfixes mentioned in wiki (manual -> requirements)

    Codecs:
    • mpeg2: MPV and MPA
    • h.264: coreavc

    hope it helps :)

    if you have questions -> shoot

    note: i will definitly not use VISTA in live enviroment here before SP1 or SP2 ;)
     

    chrispi

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    @infinityloop

    Thanks a lot!

    Forgot the "?" behind "Vista" so it was more a question.

    Christoph
     

    Kaween

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    @InfinityLoop

    Hmmm. Please don't take this response of mine the wrong way. I'm not here to try and piss against the wind or do a cry-baby routine on how a beta doesn't work like a full release. I'm _trying_ to give you guys some insight from a "problemcase", or at least try to get you to look at the problem from another angle.

    If anything I'm stating here now would stroke you in the wrong way, let me asure you I'm _not_ looking to insult anyone. I _was_ trying to help.


    As far as your initial repsonse about "drivers", "codecs" and "botched up Windows configs" go .....

    With all due respect, but I clearly stated the testmachines were _all_ clean XP Pro installations, all updates were loaded, no conflicting codecs were loaded (clean installations from a clean, empty hdd !). In case it wasn't clear the first time around, I've just repeated it again.

    I've been working on and off as Beta tester for a couple of brands over the last 5 to 6 years (for various products, including but not limited to Pinnacle, Matrox and Canopus) so I know a bit about hardware and software in general, and building testcases and reporting errors. I learn something new every day, and still would have a _lot_ to learn about the way MP+TV0.3 exactly work, but I _know_ there's a problem when I can faithfully reproduce it.

    I'm not _expecting_ you to believe any of this. For all you know, I might be a purple faced 5 foot midget with no life and a strong disliking to anyone trying to bring to MS-based machines what MythTV has done for the Linux world. If believing this helps you to dismiss my results, be my guest and see if I care.

    The effect of the stutter was clearly connected to the type of mainboard used. With _all_ parameters equal and only changing the mainboard (and cpu, depending on used test platform) would provide with such an array of different results, the only _logical_ conclusion would remain that EITHER the used PVR150 boards would be funky (hardware or software orginated : I wouldn't dare to make a clear assumption about that) OR the way TVserver interacts with the PVR150 boards I've used _differs_ from used mainboard to used mainboard.

    Fact remains, _none_ of the mentioned hardware platforms showed _any_ problems using different programs than TVserver for streaming purposes, and that includes BeyondTV, SagteTV, and VLC. I tested _all_ these routes, and the _only_ program suffering from stutter over the wired and the wireless Lan, was TVserver. The fact TVserver wasn't able to produce a clean, errorfree timeshift TS file on the problematic cases should prove that _there's_ where the problem originates. Now it may very well be it's a problem at the level where TVserver interacts with Hauppauge's Analog cards (as I've seen a couple of remarks about "know problems" in that area by the person who's doing that part of the project, together with a "I don't have time to fix this right now" remark, though I can't say if that remark is still valid today); it would be interesting to see if the main group of people with stutter problems use an analog mpeg2 TV card.

    The way the error occurs (digiblocks/corrupted frames within the stream) when timeshifting reminds me a _lot_ about the way Canopus or older Pinnacle HW Mpeg2 encoders would react whenever there would be a bitbudget problem and either the system itself wouldn't be able to cope with the stream, or the board itself would not be able to cope with the presented data. The fact MP ITSELF showed no problems on the same machines in creating a flawless mpeg2 recording AND in fact, TVserver was able to create a flawless MPEG2 RECORDING stream but NOT a flawless TS timeshift stream, again leaves me with little or no other room for conclusion that _something is very wrong_ with TVserver's ability to timeshift correctly using both PVR150's I've used, and that the effect _differs_ from hardware platform to hardware platform, which is _odd_ to say the least.

    You may dismiss this by blatantly stating I have no idea what I'm talking about, and carry on regardless, but as long as the _and I say this without sarcasm_ highly esteemed people behing this project choose to ignore this kind of testing, you'll see these kinds of "can't get the thing working correctly" remarks on the forum.

    Mind you, I _did_ get it to work on ONE hardware platform inspite of using _exactly_ the same methodology and test builds. Can't we at least agree that, If your assumptions about my method and conclusion would be totally wrong, _none_ of the testcases would have been able to result in a working system ?

    As I said in the opening of my reply, I'm filled with awe about the way this project has grown, but I state again TVserver is suffering from a couple of very specific issues, a conclusion I didn't reach lightly and didn't post just because ONE system didn't behave as I expected. Each system/testcase had been rebuild from scratch, and each installation has been repeated _at least twice_ confirming the results I found in the first run. It took me roughly 20 manhours to reach the conclusions I've posted here, and I'm somewhat disappointed that you disregard them by simply stating "you have never seen it happen before".

    A personal observation : I've been working in the IT world for the better part of my professional life, debunking other people's problems, and I've learned _never_ to dismiss a new issue just because _I_ haven't seen it before. I know first-hand how hard it sometimes can be to see or admit a problem in one's own "baby", but that doesn't make it _less_ real to a neutral bystander.
     

    infinite.loop

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    okay, lets do a different approach then :)


    the TVServer isnt doint anything special it takes the received data-stream, builds a direct show filter to create the RTSP stream.

    thats all :)

    the only difference to the systems i am using here, and to those i have build with tv-server is that i never used analog TV-Cards, because analog is virtualy dead here.
    i only use(d) dvb-s, -t or -c and never encountered something like you reported on 20+ systems. :)


    until now we only know "it doesnt work".

    So we need more detail about the issue you encounter.

    Question: did RTSP-stream work on any system you tested the TV-Server?

    Furthermore we need detailed testreports from every system you use which is not able to create an correct RTSP stream.

    The report(s) have to contain:
    1. a detailed harwarespecification (fill out the template when posting the bugreport)
    2. make sure that WindowsXP is up-to-date (windwsupdate)
    3. make sure to use the latest drivers for every device
    4. install the hotfixes listed ::here:: (they are not incuded in windowsupdate)
    5. TV-Server and VLC logs from the following test-run
      1. install latest build of TV-Server
      2. configure TV-Server and scan for channels
      3. make sure that the streaming IP is set correctly by selecting the server and pressing the edit button
      4. clear all TV-Server logs
      5. in the management tool (setuptv.exe) go to manual control and tune any channel (timeshift)
      6. open streaming server.Log to find out the rtsp stream adress
      7. start VLC on the same PC as TV-Server is installed and enable the log-window
      8. then connect to the rtsp stream
      9. watch the stream for at least 1 minute
      10. save the log from VLC to a txt file
      11. then stop timeshift in manual control
      12. attach all TV-Server logs and the VLC log to your bugreport ::here::

    The reason why i want that you connect to the RTSP stream on the PC where the TV-Server is running is simple.
    We have allready seen "broken" LAN-switches/ports and poor WLAN's causing stuttering in a stream.
    so if you test it on the Server-PC you can eliminate the network component. :)

    Together we will surely find the cause of your problem :)
    :D
     

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