Video player stategy? (2 Viewers)

[joecrow]

if "this" means BrowserPlayer support for Online Videos:

then it's contained in https://forum.team-mediaportal.com/threads/mediaportal-2-weekly-snapshot-2016-02-07.133630/ (and newer builds).

If you mean external BD player, then this is not yet implemented.

I meant having something that can playback Bluray e.g. Cyberlink PowerDVD, without using a legally questionable/non freeware decryptor. Just hope AnyDVD keeps going for a while longer but likely to be a problem with new BD releases.

 

[CyberSimian]

Is this available with the current version?

Before getting too excited, it might be worthwhile checking to see if the Ortek VRC-1100 remote control that you use with MP1 also works with MP2. I was under the impression that MP2 lacks the necessary mapping layer for the Ortek/Hama, so the "Centarea HID.xml" config file that works for MP1 is of no use for MP2.

The last time this was discussed, @morpheus_xx suggested that it might be possible to use IRSS to support the Ortek/Hama in MP2. I have never used IRSS, so I don't know whether that is possible.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK

 

[joecrow]

Before getting too excited, it might be worthwhile checking to see if the Ortek VRC-1100 remote control that you use with MP1 also works with MP2. I was under the impression that MP2 lacks the necessary mapping layer for the Ortek/Hama, so the "Centarea HID.xml" config file that works for MP1 is of no use for MP2.
-- from CyberSimian in the UK

Hi CyberSimian

That is not an issue for me here, if/when we MP2 is at a stage where I believe it can be used in my living room I will happily buy a supported remote or use the CEC plugin and my TV one.

What for me is the issue is that it has taken me a lot of work and time to get MP1 to a point where it equals and in fact now exceeds WMC in functionality, operability and looks. I do not deny that for me this has also been much fun, but while MP1 has such flexibility and a wealth of options, that makes it very complicated to get set up. MP2 on the other hand is very straight forward and simple to install and set up and clearly is designed that way with major functions, OV, Web Radio, Weather etc. included in the initial install, just set up TV and you are pretty much ready to go, EXCEPT that the video player lacks functionality , namely BD3D, BD menus, 4K UHD, and relies on legally questionable decryptors. Furthermore some these features are unlikely ever to be available in a freeware player which is why I started this thread back in 2014 to understand the strategy and suggesting MP2 implement an external player option. Since then Arcsoft have dropped TMT, DVDFab was closed down and re-opened and now Slysoft has gone but PowerDVD is still there with a legal and not too expensive full featured player, so IMHO the need for an external player option in MP2 is still there and in fact more pressing!
Hope that clears any bad air, I'm not looking to give the developers a hard time but I believe MP2 has so much more potential with an external player option.

 

[Lehmden]

Hi.

EXCEPT that the video player lacks functionality , namely BD3D, BD menus, 4K UHD,

The first two are valid. BD3D depends on a working DirectShow Filter (aka Codec) to be working ootb. A very first exemplar is available, but it is expensive so no one has tested and implemented it now.

BDJ menus are an issue that probably never can be solved due to legal issues.

But 4K UHD is supported in MP2 a long time already. You even can choose which codec you want to use for H265 material, also Lentoid is the very best (I even would name it the only usable) codec available today...

Personally I'm not in a need for an external player solution and most likely none of our devs are... Because every type of optical disk (incl BluRay) is outdated and imho obsolete. The disks are so easy to damage, consuming so much space and they are extremely uncomfortable in usage. Since years I even did not have any optical drives in any of my PC. I have an external BD Writer, just in case I need one. But this wasn't used for more than a year now. I even don't know if it's still working...
The earlier days I had whole walls filled with DVD disks, but those days are gone forever. Optical disks are the successor of VHS tapes of course but USB Sticks and HDD are the successor of optical disks, so the time of CD/DVD/BD has passed away and never will come back.

But this did not mean this option should not be implemented. It only should explain why this did not have that high priority you may think it should have (and it most likely has for you)...

 

[joecrow]

But 4K UHD is supported in MP2 a long time already. You even can choose which codec you want to use for H265 material, also Lentoid is the very best (I even would name it the only usable) codec available today...

OK, yes but can the codec in conjunction with the internal player handle the copy protection encryption?

The earlier days I had whole walls filled with DVD disks, but those days are gone forever. Optical disks are the successor of VHS tapes of course but USB Sticks and HDD are the successor of optical disks, so the time of CD/DVD/BD has passed away and never will come back..

Well not entirely sure what you are saying there. Do you mean the future will only be non-retainable pay to view each time on-demand streaming? I would imagine anything retainable, regardless of the medium, will be subject to encryption and require a legal player!

 

[Lehmden]

copy protection encryption?

4K did not mean encryption. All 4K material I've ever seen so far is without copy protection. 4K TV for example or streaming services. The UHD BluRay specs are finished, but there is not a single disk available today. The first disks and player are announced for April (an April fool???) And I doubt they ever will get a wide user base. The UHD BluRay is not compatible with average BluRay drives. So you need to buy another stand alone player and/or another optical disk drive for your PC. Aside this most of the big studios don't want to spend that much money on optical disk as most of the users don't like them that much. So you can expect a simple copy of 4K online media to a UHD BluRay with less comfort and more costs... If you ask me UHD BluRay is death before it was born. Not even the "parents" (the UHD BD consortium) believe it will make it to success.

I would imagine anything retainable, regardless of the medium, will be subject to encryption and require a legal player!

This is near to impossible as there are too much formats, containers and tools out there that did (and can) not have any copy protection mechanism... Most of the material not on optical drives did not and never will have copy protection because copy protection is enormously lowering the acceptance and for this the number of customers dramatically. You can install a copy protection only when it is available from the very first beginning of the specific media. As it was with DVD (until a 14 year old boy has "cracked" it a few days after launch) or with BluRay (that was cracked by SlySoft on the very first day the BluRay was launched)... But you can not "install" a copy protection mechanism long time after something is released...

Copy protection in general is completely useless (excerpt for the companies who sell the mechanism as they earn a giant amount of money with something that is completely useless) and the movie industry will learn this too, like the music industry had to learn the hard way.

Music had copy protection until the music industry nearly dies completely. The very last audio CD I bought was the first with copy protection. A complete disaster. The sound was terrible and I needed to crack the copy protection to be able to playback the CD I've bought legally as my CD player could not play this CD, but my PC could copy it. So exactly the opposite of what should happen... I've swear to myself I never will buy a copy protected audio CD again. And I didn't...
This was 20 years ago and before the stupid "protection" I have bought 2 to 4 Cd a month. And I'm not the only one that did the same, so the music industry was short to death. As soon as the copy protection was history the music industry starts growing rapidly again. You download a mp3 or flac or whatever and only pay once but you can keep and play it as long and often as you want... It's only a matter of time until the video industry will come to the same result. It's the only way to survive in the long term. All media with heavy restrictions of usage are dead or bound to die.

But most users don't want to keep videos for a long time opposite to music that will be played over and over again. So TV and streaming services are the preferred transport vehicle... And in the long run the streaming services with their "flatrates" will succeed, I'm pretty sure. As long as you did have fast internet it's the easiest way to handle "your" media. This means: do not care about them at all, pay a monthly or annual fee and you have "your" collection everywhere in the whole world..

 

[joecrow]

4K did not mean encryption. All 4K material I've ever seen so far is without copy protection. 4K TV for example or streaming services. The UHD BluRay specs are finished, but there is not a single disk available today. The first disks and player are announced for April (an April fool???) And I doubt they ever will get a wide user base. The UHD BluRay is not compatible with average BluRay drives. So you need to buy another stand alone player and/or another optical disk drive for your PC. Aside this most of the big studios don't want to spend that much money on optical disk as most of the users don't like them that much. So you can expect a simple copy of 4K online media to a UHD BluRay with less comfort and more costs... If you ask me UHD BluRay is death before it was born. Not even the "parents" (the UHD BD consortium) believe it will make it to success.

I think you may well be right regarding the sucess or failure of 4K UHD but for copy protection I guess we must wait and see.

This is near to impossible as there are too much formats, containers and tools out there that did (and can) not have any copy protection mechanism... Most of the material not on optical drives did not and never will have copy protection because copy protection is enormously lowering the acceptance and for this the number of customers dramatically. You can install a copy protection only when it is available from the very first beginning of the specific media. As it was with DVD (until a 14 year old boy has "cracked" it a few days after launch) or with BluRay (that was cracked by SlySoft on the very first day the BluRay was launched)... But you can not "install" a copy protection mechanism long time after something is released...

I bought DVDs because they offered the best quality playback, on a robust medium, available in their day. Similar with Bluray though the medium is less robust. My decision to purchase was/is based on, do I want to see this movie and retain it to view again and is the audio multlingual to suit my household, copy protection has never been a consideration!

Copy protection in general is completely useless (excerpt for the companies who sell the mechanism as they earn a giant amount of money with something that is completely useless) and the movie industry will learn this too, like the music industry had to learn the hard way.

Try telling that to the cable TV companies in the USA.

Music had copy protection until the music industry nearly dies completely. The very last audio CD I bought was the first with copy protection. A complete disaster. The sound was terrible and I needed to crack the copy protection to be able to playback the CD I've bought legally as my CD player could not play this CD, but my PC could copy it. So exactly the opposite of what should happen... I've swear to myself I never will buy a copy protected audio CD again. And I didn't...
This was 20 years ago and before the stupid "protection" I have bought 2 to 4 Cd a month. And I'm not the only one that did the same, so the music industry was short to death. As soon as the copy protection was history the music industry starts growing rapidly again. You download a mp3 or flac or whatever and only pay once but you can keep and play it as long and often as you want... It's only a matter of time until the video industry will come to the same result. It's the only way to survive in the long term. All media with heavy restrictions of usage are dead or bound to die.in their day

I would suggest that what nearly killed the music distribution industry was the unacceptabley high prices they charged for CDs that cost pennies to produce, and their inability to understand/come to terms with making a profit out of the inevitable lower cost alternative. Music CD copy protection was merely a pathetic attempt to maintain the margins on the overpriced CD.

But most users don't want to keep videos for a long time opposite to music that will be played over and over again.

Are you really sure about that? For me it is the exact opposite, I do have some of my favourite music on the HDD and download new. The CDs though have long gone and my vynal disks are up in the attic with no means to play them!

So TV and streaming services are the preferred transport vehicle... And in the long run the streaming services with their "flatrates" will succeed, I'm pretty sure. As long as you did have fast internet it's the easiest way to handle "your" media. This means: do not care about them at all, pay a monthly or annual fee and you have "your" collection everywhere in the whole world..

Here I think you are right on the nail, the ever increasing features available on TVs will ultimately make the HTPC redundant and MP2 with it. When we look far enough in the future though, it is always possible to find an excuse for not doing anything now.

 

[Lehmden]

Hi.

Are you really sure about that? For me it is the exact opposite

Yes, I'm sure, also I'm a collector too. I have around 40 TByte of Media, most of them are Series episodes (22.000++ Episodes, the majority is in HD)... But I know how much work it is to keep the collection well shaped so I can understand the people who didn't want to invest that much time...

and is the audio multlingual

And I have written a tool that, aside lots of other useful features, can strip away all audio and subtitle tracks aside of my native language... That's a matter of taste...

the unacceptabley high prices they charged for CDs

This was one reason but afaik a CD today costs still that much... But the main reason was, the people wanted to use "their" music on the upcoming IPods and have a copy of the CD for the car (to save the original), make "mixtapes" out of their collections and so on. All this wasn't possible due to the copy protection so most users thought, If nevertheless I'm forced to illegally download the music I've payed for only to use it as I like to, I even can stop paying for it and only download the music for free... Today a music CD only is a transport vehicle to bring the music home from the store. And BluRay only can survive if it will be the same for video, a medium to bring home the content and use it as I like at home...

the ever increasing features available on TVs will ultimately make the HTPC redundant

I don't believe this will happen that soon. But the HTPC software needs to change it's main goals. MP2 will be the central server for storing and collecting media and bring this to any kind of device the user has. The classical use case with a client software on a full blown PC connected to the "big screen" in the living room, this indeed will be decreasing in future. And for this the client is not the most important part of MP2 imho. MP2 can offer it's services far ahead of this single use case. Due to the central server with integrated ASP- and DLNA- server (both is a wip and both is partially working already) it can bring all kinds of media, even Live TV to nearly anything that can playback media... Aside this it later should be possible to bundle also streaming services here and provide them to any device in the home network. But this feature is not started yet so this will take longer until it's available... Such an amount of functionality a "Smart Tv" never will have as it is not that important for the "masses" and never enough for the geeks.. Lot of customers never use any of the "smart features" at all...

 

[joecrow]

Hi again

First off many thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight with me.

Such an amount of functionality a "Smart Tv" never will have as it is not that important for the "masses" and never enough for the geeks.. Lot of customers never use any of the "smart features" at all...

Yes somewhat agree there but given the current level of duplication which many users have as a result of using or being forced to use STBs it is not that surprising that they are not using or maybe not even aware of the Smart TV options. With the STB integrated in the TV with perhaps a couple of TBs of storage and a DNLA server (hell my router has one came free, the router that is with the DSL contract) coupled with a streaming service and what more does the average user need?

 

[joecrow]

On the assumption that the intergration of the Madvr renderer into MP1 is sucessfull and will also be implemented in MP2. I have to confess that I almost thought of withdrawing this feature request for an external player option in MP2, since it will be possible to play BD3D ripped to MVC/MKV using the MP internal player. The lack of this functionality was one of my major reasons for making the request, now though I can play BD3D without an external player and also without AnyDVD, which given that I will not be subscribing to the new slysoft(redfox) is a real bonus. I have now converted my BD3D iso rips to MVC/MKV and the current madvr/MP1 test version plays them real well.
None the less there are still occaisions when I find it very very usefull just to load an actual BD/DVD disk and play it, ether to determine if it is worth ripping, or because I decided it was not worth the space on my data disks but want to look at it again. An authorised external player gives me that functionality without recourse to a legally questionable and economically risky decryptor.
Also 4K UHD optical disks are now available, what hardware is required and when a software player will be available that will play them (PowerDVD16 does not), I don't know, but I'm sure that if it comes it will be via an external player. I also note that MP1 1.15 pre offers a new option of seperate/different external players forDVD and BD, so it does seem that I may not be the only one out here supporting an external player cause. So come on dev's what about it?