Tuning Data Correct But Displayed Program Is Not (1 Viewer)

EW Thomas

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January 5, 2016
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Hello once again :)
Hopefully I can leave everyone alone after this and not have to bother for answers or solutions.
The anomaly I have currently concerns "H&I" on 101°W Blind scanning shows up "Decades" which is also on the same bird just a different carrier frequency.
The correct parameters are as follows: 3952 Vertical 2734 SR FEC 5/6 APID 258 AC3 VPID 256 SID 1 When enter this data as shown I get Decades
3952 V QPSK FEC 3/4 APID 558 AC3 VPID 556 SID 1

I have tried re entering and re-scanning numerous times but still come up with the same thing.
I don't think the Prof 7301 is at fault because it works OK on both those carriers in DVB Dream
So... with that being said What The Heck Am I Doing Wrong ?? I am a newcomer to MP but no to
Satellite Communications... I go all the way back to the early 80's on this when just out of school.

I believe my system specs are current and I have uploaded the log files.

Any help appreciated! Once again I apologize for having so many newbeee questions!


Thanks!
 

mm1352000

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    Hello again Wayne

    Blind scanning...
    As just noted in your previous thread regarding universal LNBs, TV Server doesn't support blind scanning. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say this. Please clarify.

    ...shows up "Decades" which is also on the same bird just a different carrier frequency. The correct parameters are as follows: 3952 Vertical 2734 SR FEC 5/6 APID 258 AC3 VPID 256 SID 1 When enter this data as shown I get Decades
    3952 V QPSK FEC 3/4 APID 558 AC3 VPID 556 SID 1
    What you've said here doesn't make sense to me. Specifically: you say the channels have different carrier frequencies, but then the parameters you quote both have the same carrier frequency (3952 MHz). Please clarify.
     

    EW Thomas

    Portal Pro
    January 5, 2016
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    Southwestern Virginia
    United States of America United States of America
    Ok will do :) Seems my problems are always confusing LOL

    In a nut shell when I do a single transponder scan for 3952 V 2734 instead of the program material for it I get the program material for 3957 V 2734.
    Decades is showing where Heroes should be ...even with the correct PIDS. Does TV Server use the same BDA drivers that are in the cards folder or does it load something different? Reason I ask on that is there seems to be no WIN 10 BDA package but there does for WIN 8.1 I think then architecture between the 2 OS's would be close enough to be compatible.

    Sorry to be a pain but I'm not 100% up to speed on the core operations of MP just yet but I'm sure learning the ins and outs :)
     

    mm1352000

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    In a nut shell when I do a single transponder scan for 3952 V 2734 instead of the program material for it I get the program material for 3957 V 2734.
    Okay, I understand now.

    TV Server simply tells the tuner to tune with the tuning parameters that you supply. If the tuner ends up locking onto the wrong transponder then that's likely to be due to one or more of the following factors:
    1. An error in the tuning parameters you've supplied.
    2. An issue with the tuner driver's tuning algorithm.
    3. LNB LOF drift.
    In any case it's got nothing to do with TV Server, and TV Server will have no idea that the tuner has locked onto the wrong transponder.

    According to Lyngsat there are three transponders with the same polarisation, symbol rate, FEC etc. within a 10 MHz carrier frequency range (3953, 3957, and 3961 MHz). That's a perfect recipe for a combination of (2) and (3) above to cause the problem you're seeing. Especially if there's a significant difference in the signal strength/quality of the transponders.

    To resolve this situation, please start by confirming that the parameters that you're using for your scan are correct:
    • frequency = 3953000 / 3957000 / 3961000 kHz
    • symbol rate = 2734 ks/s
    • polarisation = vertical
    • modulation = not set
    • inner FEC rate = 5/6
    • pilot = not set
    • roll-off = not set
    Note the modulation setting. That is the setting you should use for DVB-S QPSK.

    If you were already using the correct parameters and/or using the correct parameters doesn't help, try modifying the frequency slightly (3952000,
    3951000, 3950000 etc.). When transponder carrier frequencies are so close, even the slightest error in the LNB LOF can mean that the tuner will lock onto the wrong transponder. For example, if the LNB LOF is actually 5149 MHz instead of 5150 MHz and you attempt to scan 3953 MHz, the tuner will actually scan 3954 MHz (...which makes it that much more likely to lock on the 3957 "Decades" transponder, especially if 3957 is received with stronger signal strength/quality than 3953).

    Does TV Server use the same BDA drivers that are in the cards folder or does it load something different?
    I don't know what you mean by "cards folder", but yes TV Server will be using whatever [BDA] driver you've installed. TV Server couldn't "load something different" even if it wanted to. The way Windows works is that you install one driver, and then all software - TV Server, DVB Dream etc. - must use that driver.

    Reason I ask on that is there seems to be no WIN 10 BDA package but there does for WIN 8.1 I think then architecture between the 2 OS's would be close enough to be compatible.
    I don't think there have been any significant changes to Windows' tuner support (BDA/PBDA) since Windows 7. So yes it's fine to use the same tuner driver for Windows 10 as for Windows 8/8.1.
     

    EW Thomas

    Portal Pro
    January 5, 2016
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    I'm using a Norsat PLL lnb so drift "should" be negligible . I just used the parameters supplied in Sathint and Lyngsat and since I don't have the actual L band frequency probably best approach is like you said in altering the tuning frequency slightly and retrying. Other than little piddly problems like this I have no problems which over all is good IMHO. The drivers I'm using are the ones used for WIN 7 most likely so since there has been no major development since then I'll leave it as it is currently.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this ! Your help has been greatly appreciated!
     

    mm1352000

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    I'm using a Norsat PLL lnb so drift "should" be negligible .
    Okay.

    I just used the parameters supplied in Sathint and Lyngsat and since I don't have the actual L band frequency probably best approach is like you said in altering the tuning frequency slightly and retrying
    Just to be really clear...

    The Sathint and Lyngsat parameters don't actually agree. Sathint says the FEC coding for 3957 and 3961 is 3/4 whereas Lyngsat says it's 5/6. I'm not sure which of these is actually correct, but getting it right may be important. For what it's worth, TV Server's tuning parameters come from FastSatFinder, and they're showing 5/6 like Lyngsat.

    There's also the modulation setting. This is important. As noted in my previous reply: you should choose "not set" rather than QPSK. If you choose QPSK then the tuner's driver may look for a DVB-S2 signal instead of DVB-S. That could cause slow tuning and/or the problem that you're seeing.

    Other than little piddly problems like this I have no problems which over all is good IMHO.
    Good. Don't hesitate to ask, even about the "little piddly problems". :)

    The drivers I'm using are the ones used for WIN 7 most likely so since there has been no major development since then I'll leave it as it is currently.
    Yeah, it's fine. You said the tuner can lock onto the signal with DVB Dream. DVB Dream is using the same driver. TV Server should be able to do the same as DVB Dream, as long as you're tuning with the same [correct] parameters.

    Thanks for taking the time to read this ! Your help has been greatly appreciated!
    No problem, any time. :)
     

    EW Thomas

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    January 5, 2016
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    Well folks,
    Here's the latest updates. I am still ending up with strange tuning but it appears to be mostly on C Band.
    Here's what I have done so far to attempt to isolate:

    Complete Clean install of MP 1.13
    Installed on a newly built PC with fresh tuner drivers from Prof for X86 WIN 7
    After this I still ended up with goofy results. Strangely I have no signal at all at first when scanning for single transponder BUT if I do a TP scan about 1/3 of the way through it will start obtaining signal. I tried the tuner card with a different software ( Paid Version DVB Dream 28.1) The tuner works flawlessly.

    I also tried manipulation of both LOF frequency ( Special Tuning Over Ride Default LNB ) and the transponder frequency.

    Sorry to keep hammering on the same subject and especially for a package the obviously works perfectly for others in NA but I really do want to
    get this working if possible because the program over all does exactly what I need it to do when it performs correctly..

    BTW on the single transponder scans I downloaded the files from my A3 and set the FEC and Modulation Type to the same as it scanned.

    Thanks so much for putting up with me :)
     
    Last edited:

    mm1352000

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    Hi again Wayne

    At this point I'm unable to help you. You simply haven't supplied enough specific information.

    After this I still ended up with goofy results.
    Okay, but you're going to need to be far more specific about what "goofy" means if you would like people to assist you. A good start would be to supply full TV Server log files from one scan, and then specify which satellite you scanned and exactly what went wrong (eg. which channels are missing) in that scan.

    Complete Clean install...
    That's a lot of effort to go to. Unfortunately with the greatest respect I don't think it would have made a jot of difference to the problem as you've described it. As I tried to emphasize in my previous 2 replies, based on what you've said it sounded like the problem was most likely related to tuning parameters. When you asked about Windows and driver versions, I again tried to emphasize that those were obviously not relevant to the problem.

    Strangely I have no signal at all at first when scanning for single transponder...
    There's nothing I can say or do about this unless you supply log files showing this behaviour.

    BUT if I do a TP scan about 1/3 of the way through it will start obtaining signal.
    Again, currently there's nothing that I can do about this. I don't even know which satellite you're scanning.

    Actually, I wonder why you consider this to be a problem. In other parts of the world it's relatively common that some transponders would not be locked because they're not available in the area where the person is located (eg. spot beams, feeds etc.). So to be clear: I'm trying to say that it isn't always reasonable to expect the scan to lock on every transponder. Therefore a "no signal" result should not be considered to be a problem unless you have reason to expect that transponder should be lockable.

    I also wonder if you've used the "update satellite list" function to ensure your transponder lists are up to date.

    I also tried manipulation of both LOF frequency ( Special Tuning Over Ride Default LNB )...
    Given that you've got other LNBs which are not C-band LNBs, this is a bad idea. I strongly recommend you disable those settings.

    BTW on the single transponder scans I downloaded the files from my A3...
    For what it's worth, I have no idea what an "A3" is.

    ...and set the FEC and Modulation Type to the same as it scanned.
    I'd just like to emphasize again that you need to be careful which modulation setting you choose. Choosing "QPSK" when your A3 says a transponder is QPSK would be wrong. In general I'd sooner recommend full satellite scans with an up-to-date transponder list over single transponder scans.

    Regards,
    mm
     

    EW Thomas

    Portal Pro
    January 5, 2016
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    2
    55
    Southwestern Virginia
    United States of America United States of America
    Okay, but you're going to need to be far more specific about what "goofy" means if you would like people to assist you. A good start would be to supply full TV Server log files from one scan, and then specify which satellite you scanned and exactly what went wrong (eg. which channels are missing) in that scan.

    Ok..In this situation goofy means anything other than the scanned TP.
    For instance on 101°W I scan for specific TP using 3974 V 5924 instead of getting that in the preview I get 3957 V 2734.
    Strangely enough when I scanned from a freshly updated TP list on 101°W I didn't get either of the TP's mentioned above all I got was the encrypted TP's at 3980 H > I'm not mking this up although I gotta admit it sure sounds like I am :)

    That's a lot of effort to go to. Unfortunately with the greatest respect I don't think it would have made a jot of difference to the problem as you've described it. As I tried to emphasize in my previous 2 replies, based on what you've said it sounded like the problem was most likely related to tuning parameters. When you asked about Windows and driver versions, I again tried to emphasize that those were obviously not relevant to the problem.
    The reason I went through all that was due to that particular machine is a 24X7 computer that also runs a weather program that pushes warnings, forecasts and similar data to my web site. It is constantly parsing data so I though maybe with the addition of MP I might be taxing the performance a tad.. Didn't really look for any changes except for lower CPU usage but I would take a surprise had it happened :)

    There's nothing I can say or do about this unless you supply log files showing this behaviour.
    No problem there. I will get the logs for you the next time I get a chance to work with it, shouldn't be long ...

    Again, currently there's nothing that I can do about this. I don't even know which satellite you're scanning.

    Seems like the worst satellite I deal with is 101°W most everything else KU and C band scans in OK

    Actually, I wonder why you consider this to be a problem. In other parts of the world it's relatively common that some transponders would not be locked because they're not available in the area where the person is located (eg. spot beams, feeds etc.). So to be clear: I'm trying to say that it isn't always reasonable to expect the scan to lock on every transponder. Therefore a "no signal" result should not be considered to be a problem unless you have reason to expect that transponder should be lockable.
    I agree with you here the only reason I look at it as a problem is because I can lock them with no problems using the same hardware just different programs

    Given that you've got other LNBs which are not C-band LNBs, this is a bad idea. I strongly recommend you disable those settings.
    Are you referring to when I do a scan? If so the only LNB activated is the one for the band I am scanning

    For what it's worth, I have no idea what an "A3" is.
    Amiko Alien 3

    I'd just like to emphasize again that you need to be careful which modulation setting you choose. Choosing "QPSK" when your A3 says a transponder is QPSK would be wrong. In general I'd sooner recommend full satellite scans with an up-to-date transponder list over single transponder scans.
    Agreed here too. Just because one TP is 8PSK doesn't mean the entire bird is the same :)

    I'm sure it's a simple something I am overlooking. The program is way too good to be it's normal behavior , it has to be on my end somewhere.

    Thanks again for taking time to read my lengthy post :)
     

    mm1352000

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    Ok..In this situation goofy means anything other than the scanned TP.
    Okay. I'm still waiting for the log files etc. as previously requested...

    Are you referring to when I do a scan? If so the only LNB activated is the one for the band I am scanning
    No, I mean don't use them at all.
    They're overrides. That means they will be used for all channels. Even the Ku band channels previously scanned in.
    If you've used them to scan in any channels, I'd advise you to delete those channels and rescan using the appropriate "band" setting.

    Agreed here too. Just because one TP is 8PSK doesn't mean the entire bird is the same :)
    I don't mean to labour the point unnecessarily, but from this comment I have the impression you still haven't understood what I'm trying to say. Please forgive the following additional clarification if you have already understood...

    Let's say you're attempting to scan a single DVB-S transponder. You're copying the settings from your A3 as you said. I guess your A3 will describe such a transponder as "QPSK"... or maybe just "DVB-S", I'm not exactly sure. TV Server has a "QPSK" setting which looks like the obvious right choice. Point is: it's not. "QPSK" is the wrong choice for scanning DVB-S QPSK. As previously indicated, "not set" is the correct choice for DVB-S QPSK.

    So to be clear: the point I'm trying to make is not to be careful that you don't use the same setting for all transponders. Rather, I'm trying to point out that:
    1. It's important to use correct settings.
    2. The correct settings aren't always the ones you think they'd be at first glance.
    The reason I recommend full satellite scans is because that way you don't have to know/care about these idiosyncrasies.
     

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