Which CAM for Canal Digitaal? (1 Viewer)

[mm1352000]

Do I ever sound as if I'm kidding ?

You won't believe this, but meanwhile I got something working...
I decided that the weather was too good to be behind a PC, so I shut down everything and relaxed a bit in the sun.
I just came back in to check up on things, read your reply and gave it another try.

I just scanned again, and whaddayouknow, there were my channels again !
I don't understand what happened, but at least I have something to build on....

Weather can definitely affect signal levels. Keep an eye on the signal levels every now and again and see what happens. You can do that through the context menu in MediaPortal (right-click->tuning details).

- Pretty much all the single scans were using the wrong frequency (eg. 12722 instead of 12721), so they didn't work (well one did, but that must have been a random chance).
- The full scans mostly worked on vertical polarity, but horizontal polarity only worked up to 11954 MHz (ZDF).
- DVB-S2 scanning worked on lower transponders, but it didn't work on higher transponders when other DVB-S transponders did work.
- The transponders that do not work consistently do not work. The transponder that do work consistently work.

You're right, those were wrong frequencies, but I also tried others, also without success.

Off the top of my head, the two that I saw you try towards the end of the logs were the TV Vlaanderen one and an ARD one. Both were horizontal (which is the polarity that isn't/wasn't working well) and above 11954H (which was consistently the highest horizontal transponder that worked)...

But anyhow I am considering buying a cheap DVB-S receiver for multiple reasons :
- it would take the stress out of the troubleshooting in case something goes awry again
- I have a permanent backup to watch TV
- it will certainly allow me to perform CI or other updates that are provider related
- it is an extra means of verifying if a problem is PC-related, MP-related or dish-related.

I'd definitely recommend that. When I align my dish I do it by taking a receiver and a small TV up on the roof and watching the receiver levels. It saves relying on signal meters that are cheap but not particularly good, buying a really expensive signal meter, or getting an installer in.

PS: the frequency for TV Vlaanderen is 12722H - *way* above the working transponders. It would go so far as to say that it will not work in any software unless you fix the dish alignment. It might work if you remove the switches, but only because the signal level is increased when you don't have switches connected.

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
Do you mean that the higher the frequency, the more critical the alignment is ?[/QUOTE]
That is exactly what I mean. DVB-S2 signals require better alignment too.

Thanks ever so much for all your help and advice.
I will enjoy the good weather a bit more, and as soon as I have more news I will post it here.

You're very welcome!

The only open question I still have is the following :
when Digital Devices states that my CAM has to support MTD, how can I check this ?
The Aston dual CAM, reported on this forum by another TV Vlaanderen subscriber, apparently decrypts for two tuners and for this provider succesfully. Can I conclude then that it will work for 4 tuners in my DD setup ?

Tough question - I don't have a good answer. I have recently been working on adding support for MTD for Twinhan/Terratec/Azurewave and KNC One cards (-->link<--). Some CAMs support it - some don't. Some can do more channels at once than others. The best CAM for you would be one that can do four channels at once. All I can really suggest is check CAM specifications, ask for advice from other Octopus owners in the Digital Devices thread and perhaps ask for suggestions from Digital Devices support...

 

[Phaedra]

Small update.
I found a safer way of messing with the dish alignment, from a flat roof with access to the back of the dish, and with a laptop with a remote desktop connection to the TV server. Just looked a bit funny from my neighbours point of view....
A big thanks again to mm for pointing me out how critical dish alignment can be.
When I first aligned the dish, I did that with one of those "satellite finder" peeping things. As advised ("If all else fails, read the instructions") I did the alignment with the satfinder on the center LNB (Astra 23.5).
But as I now found out, this is too inaccurate, and leading to a bad alignment on the Astra 19.2 LNB.
With my laptop, I could now select the 3 LNBs separately and do a channel scan, monitoring the signal level/quality while I moved the dish. That experiment clearly demonstrated that alignment on 1 LNB doesn't necessarily lead to a good (enough) alignment on any other.

It also made me think of a nice extra functionality for MP : if I could do a continuous channel scan on a particular transponder and frequency (the most critical frequency, or, as I learned here, the higher frequencies), and use that scan for dish alignment ?
I knwo by now which channels of my provider are most critical, so I could "lock" the scan on that channel and align the disc, monitoring signal levels....

So far, so good, my channel list is looking very good now, and time to move on to CAM matters.

I have contacted DD support, and I must say they were very helpful and responsive, even during the weekend (I even got replies on sunday !).
They can not, however, help me with a list of supported CAMS that would work for my setup.
When they talk about MTD, to me it is not clear if it has something to do with the number of channels per transponder that can be decoded. In the specifications of the Aston CAM I find that their version 2.2 supports 2 channels per transponder, but they say nothing about how many different transponders (tuners) can be handled simultaneously.
So that's still a mistery to me.

 

[mm1352000]

Small update.
I found a safer way of messing with the dish alignment, from a flat roof with access to the back of the dish, and with a laptop with a remote desktop connection to the TV server. Just looked a bit funny from my neighbours point of view....
A big thanks again to mm for pointing me out how critical dish alignment can be.
When I first aligned the dish, I did that with one of those "satellite finder" peeping things. As advised ("If all else fails, read the instructions") I did the alignment with the satfinder on the center LNB (Astra 23.5).
But as I now found out, this is too inaccurate, and leading to a bad alignment on the Astra 19.2 LNB.
With my laptop, I could now select the 3 LNBs separately and do a channel scan, monitoring the signal level/quality while I moved the dish. That experiment clearly demonstrated that alignment on 1 LNB doesn't necessarily lead to a good (enough) alignment on any other.

That's excellent news!
It is always a bit of an effort to get up on the roof with all the equipment, and the fiddling can take a little time, but I've learned ***so*** much from doing it. The lesson about alignment is certainly true. I have three twin output LNBs on a regular 90cm offset dish at 8 degrees of separation (152e, 156e, 160e). Getting that set up perfectly took me at least a day, but now that it is done it is wonderful.

It also made me think of a nice extra functionality for MP : if I could do a continuous channel scan on a particular transponder and frequency (the most critical frequency, or, as I learned here, the higher frequencies), and use that scan for dish alignment ?
I knwo by now which channels of my provider are most critical, so I could "lock" the scan on that channel and align the disc, monitoring signal levels....

Yes, I've thought the same thing but never had the time to implement it. One day I will get around to it...

So far, so good, my channel list is looking very good now, and time to move on to CAM matters.

I have contacted DD support, and I must say they were very helpful and responsive, even during the weekend (I even got replies on sunday !).
They can not, however, help me with a list of supported CAMS that would work for my setup.
When they talk about MTD, to me it is not clear if it has something to do with the number of channels per transponder that can be decoded. In the specifications of the Aston CAM I find that their version 2.2 supports 2 channels per transponder, but they say nothing about how many different transponders (tuners) can be handled simultaneously.
So that's still a mistery to me.

For a CAM, MTD just means the ability to decrypt channels simultaneously. It is not about whether all the channels are on the same transponder or not. CAMs that support MTD are usually limited by tuners - tuners can only tune to one transponder at a time. That is why the CAM information usually says "on the same transponder". The Octopus is special - it allows the CAM to be shared between tuners. *Each Octopus tuner can only decrypt one channel at a time*, but you can decrypt multiple channels from any transponder (one per tuner) as long as the CAM supports it.

So to take your example of the Aston 2.2 CAM: that CAM can decrypt 2 channels at once. In a "traditional" MTD setup you could watch or record two encrypted channels, and they would have to be on the same transponder. With the Octopus you can take the same CAM and use it to watch or record two channels on any transponder. You would have to use two tuners to do that, even if the channels were on the same transponder.

The ultimate setup would be an Octopus that allowed each tuner to decrypt more than 1 channel. That setup does not exist though... yet!

 

[Phaedra]

So to take your example of the Aston 2.2 CAM: that CAM can decrypt 2 channels at once. In a "traditional" MTD setup you could watch or record two encrypted channels, and they would have to be on the same transponder. With the Octopus you can take the same CAM and use it to watch or record two channels on any transponder. You would have to use two tuners to do that, even if the channels were on the same transponder.

The ultimate setup would be an Octopus that allowed each tuner to decrypt more than 1 channel. That setup does not exist though... yet!

So, to take the example of the Aston CAM with the Octopus : you say that the CAM can "handle" two channels ; in my case it could not serve my 4 tuners (which would require handling 4 channels at a time) ?

If that is the limit, I'm sc****ed ?
The solution would be to use 2 CAMs, but that is a problem because I only have 1 smartcard. I could get a second smartcard from my provider, but :
- it would cost me extra each month
- the second smartcard only has a limited number of channels it will decrypt
And I think copying a smartcard is illegal...even if you have a valid subscription and you only apply it for your own use.

 

[mm1352000]

So, to take the example of the Aston CAM with the Octopus : you say that the CAM can "handle" two channels ; in my case it could not serve my 4 tuners (which would require handling 4 channels at a time) ?

Correct. That CAM could not give you access to more than two encrypted channels at once. That is why I said that an ideal CAM for your Octopus would be able to decrypt 4 channels at once. Such a CAM would be able to serve the maximum of 1 encrypted channel to each tuner at any time. Of course FTA channels are still free - you can watch/record as many of them as you like...

The solution would be to use 2 CAMs, but that is a problem because I only have 1 smartcard. I could get a second smartcard from my provider, but :
- it would cost me extra each month
- the second smartcard only has a limited number of channels it will decrypt
And I think copying a smartcard is illegal...even if you have a valid subscription and you only apply it for your own use.

Yes, copying a smartcard is very likely to be breaking your provider's terms of service and could be illegal in some countries. Can you even have two CIs with an Octopus setup?

 

[Phaedra]

So, to take the example of the Aston CAM with the Octopus : you say that the CAM can "handle" two channels ; in my case it could not serve my 4 tuners (which would require handling 4 channels at a time) ?

Correct. That CAM could not give you access to more than two encrypted channels at once. That is why I said that an ideal CAM for your Octopus would be able to decrypt 4 channels at once. Such a CAM would be able to serve the maximum of 1 encrypted channel to each tuner at any time. Of course FTA channels are still free - you can watch/record as many of them as you like...

Even though FTA channels don't need decrypting, as I understood it from DD support the tuner will get its signal through the CI anyway, even for FTA channels.

The solution would be to use 2 CAMs, but that is a problem because I only have 1 smartcard. I could get a second smartcard from my provider, but :
- it would cost me extra each month
- the second smartcard only has a limited number of channels it will decrypt
And I think copying a smartcard is illegal...even if you have a valid subscription and you only apply it for your own use.

Yes, copying a smartcard is very likely to be breaking your provider's terms of service and could be illegal in some countries. Can you even have two CIs with an Octopus setup?

Yes you can (sounds like Obama, doesn't it ?) : the octopus allows 4 "devices" to be attached ; 2 of those can be (dual) tuners, and 2 CI modules. You can then assign each CI module to any tuner, independently.
I think that is some versatile system, but I overlooked the fact that the CAM is the limiting factor here, didn't know that.

I've heard about the "wifi CAM" system, where you have one CAM that acts as a server, and several other CAM clients that connect to the server CAM via WiFi. That would likely solve my problem ?
Does anyone have any experiences with that, or comments ?

Another question I was asking myself :
the standard CI module of my provider can be used in their certified PVR receivers. This requires MTD too, wouldn't it ?
The PVR function allows for one channel to be recorded while another one can be viewed.
If this CI module doesn't support MTD, then how come it works in their certified PVR machines ?

 

[mm1352000]

Even though FTA channels don't need decrypting, as I understood it from DD support the tuner will get its signal through the CI anyway, even for FTA channels.

So far as I know that is not true, but that is only after looking at our code. I don't have a DD tuner myself - too expensive for me. You could ask morpheus_xx that question...

Yes you can (sounds like Obama, doesn't it ?) : the octopus allows 4 "devices" to be attached ; 2 of those can be (dual) tuners, and 2 CI modules. You can then assign each CI module to any tuner, independently.
I think that is some versatile system, but I overlooked the fact that the CAM is the limiting factor here, didn't know that.

Ahhh, I didn't know that. Thanks - I'll keep it in mind.

I've heard about the "wifi CAM" system, where you have one CAM that acts as a server, and several other CAM clients that connect to the server CAM via WiFi. That would likely solve my problem ?
Does anyone have any experiences with that, or comments ?

Card sharing is a topic that we don't allow to be discussed on this forum because people can and do use it to receive channels they are not entitled to receive. In your case I believe you pay for your subscription, but you are still probably breaking your provider's terms of service (meaning you could theoretically be disconnected at any time). Again, we don't allow discussions about that on this forum...

 

[mm1352000]

Another question I was asking myself :
the standard CI module of my provider can be used in their certified PVR receivers. This requires MTD too, wouldn't it ?
The PVR function allows for one channel to be recorded while another one can be viewed.
If this CI module doesn't support MTD, then how come it works in their certified PVR machines ?

By definition that CAM *does* support MTD - there is no other way that recording and viewing different encrypted channels at the same time could work. Of course the tuner/STB has to support MTD too. Where did you get the idea that it doesn't?

 

[Phaedra]

Another question I was asking myself :
the standard CI module of my provider can be used in their certified PVR receivers. This requires MTD too, wouldn't it ?
The PVR function allows for one channel to be recorded while another one can be viewed.
If this CI module doesn't support MTD, then how come it works in their certified PVR machines ?

By definition that CAM *does* support MTD - there is no other way that recording and viewing different encrypted channels at the same time could work. Of course the tuner/STB has to support MTD too. Where did you get the idea that it doesn't?

From our communications we exchanged, the guy from DD support concluded that the CAM module does not support MTD.
Now I'm confused....
I should try to gather some more detailed log data for the DD guys that could point us to the real problem I'm having.

In a nutshell :
- with the CI connected, a channel scan always returns "nothing found"
- scanning channels without CI module works, but when I try to tune to an encrypted channel, I get the "Graph could not be created"

Let me review my setup thoroughly this evening and try to reproduce this, and then see if the log can reveal something more usable for DD support (or for MP support ?)

 

[mm1352000]

From our communications we exchanged, the guy from DD support concluded that the CAM module does not support MTD.
Now I'm confused....

I would be confused too.

I should try to gather some more detailed log data for the DD guys that could point us to the real problem I'm having.

In a nutshell :
- with the CI connected, a channel scan always returns "nothing found"
- scanning channels without CI module works, but when I try to tune to an encrypted channel, I get the "Graph could not be created"

Let me review my setup thoroughly this evening and try to reproduce this, and then see if the log can reveal something more usable for DD support (or for MP support ?)

Yes, I'd be happy to look at your logs. A graph building error is likely to be some kind of TV Server or CI assignment problem, so post logs here first if you're sure you've got your CI assignments right.