Vista and content protection (DRM) (1 Viewer)

ziphnor

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  • August 4, 2005
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    Sadly this is (legally) not possible. The copyright holders (producers, movie industry) want to protect their core assets in every way possible.
    And i would like to help change their mind :) I guess im just not as resigned as you are regarding these guys, i believe they can be pushed into avoiding DRM by boycotting and lobbying.

    Is Microsoft/Vista to blame for this? i think not..
    I mostly agree, but they did not have to make it that easy for the content providers. In general i feel microsoft, while somewhat innovative, have been spending too much time lately programming limitations instead of features.

    When other operating systems (like linux/macosx) are going to support HD-DVD playback they will need to add the exact same DRM functionality to their platform since its a requirement from the movie industry.
    I have a hard time seeing anyone implementing a protected media path with certified drivers in Linux. In Denmark and other Scandinavian countries there is a strong political push towards ensuring things are not locked to a single platform or device. Just look at the iTunes mess for example(illegal in Norway now, and being sued elsewhere), so they might be forced to enable playback on Linux without the 'proctected media path' in place in the long term. Apart from that, during the whole DeCSS thing it was legal to break the protection on DVDs here in Denmark in order to play it back on Linux. This might have changed, but if it hasnt then im sure upcoming cracks of the HD-DVD DRM for linux will be distributable without legal issues.

    I dont think they stand any chance
    The number of (standalone) HD-DVD players is perhaps 1000x higher then the number of pc's used to watch HD-DVD. Even today most people watch DVDs on a standalone player instead of using Windows (or linux or macosx)
    Then it shouldnt be such a big deal not to support it :) I think the HD-DVD is already a dinosaur, and it is very vulnerable. If you started getting stories in the press about microsoft saying they wouldnt want to support this archaic crap, then the content providers might get nervous. Besides, its not like MS would lose customers, i dont think anyone would change from Windows -> Mac just to play HD-DVDs.

    DRM is here and its going to stay, whether we, microsoft or anybody else likes it.
    Well, i guess there is two approaches to this. One is being resigned about it and accept it, the other is to fight back, which is what i prefer. I simply dont buy DVDs/CDs and i can ensure you i will never buy a HD-DVD or Bluray disc (unless its a writable one for backup :). I also donate money to groups that try to prevent DRM.

    But who knows... perhaps some genius guy comes along and hacks the HD-DVD DRM so everyone can playback their HD-DVD's on any machine..
    Its already on the way as people have mentioned already. I would suggest visiting http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/ once in a while. They have a series of articles explaining the HD-DVD protections, and i believe they also discuss exactly how many/what combination of keys are needed to break the whole system. At least for HDCP they argue that it can actually be broken reasonably fast with a bruteforce method, and if you break that you can trick a HD-DVD player into delivering the uncompressed video to an untrusted device which can then capture it. Of course this is not the easiest way to do it, but im sure the on-disc encryption will follow suit.
     

    samuel337

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    August 25, 2004
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    Hmm... my latest response has magically disappeared.

    (I'm 99% sure I submitted the post and saw it here before.)

    Anyway, I can't be bothered rewriting it again - the gist of it was that governments have a big role to play in defining DRM and stopping it from encroaching on consumer rights.

    Marcusb:
    About downloading DRM-ed TV shows, Ten's trying it now with Tripping Over on Bigpond's TV service. They've also got some more online initiatives coming up. Bigpond's also gotten their media services on to Vista's Media Center too, so that could work better.

    ziphnor:
    I think it would be very hard to make the PC 'secure' enough without microsofts support, so the only real option the media companies would have would be to either make a less secure implementation with bugs that would make consumers complain to THEM and not microsoft (and which could be easily circumvented, always nice), or they could give up on the PC platform altogether.
    They could always think up a more draconian scheme, and get some money-hungry developers to implement it. Microsoft would ultimately foot the problem because when issues arise (like BSODs, crashes, slowness etc.), it won't be evident that its 3rd-party DRM. After all, we've all had to deal with insecure, buggy Microsoft software for so long its natural to point the finger at them.

    About where you get your music - isn't ripping library CDs illegal over there? AFAIK it is in Australia, but then again, you guys seem to have much nicer consumer-focused laws.

    Are you going to rent HDDVDs or Blu-Ray discs then? Or are you not going to watch HD movies at all...

    How long do you think it will take until we have HD-DVD playback under Linux? Im guessing this year.
    Illegally for a lot of the world of course.

    Sam
     

    FlipGer

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  • April 27, 2004
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    Hi,

    yeah, Samuel. I also wondered where your post has vanished. Got it via email notification.

    Post from Samuel:

    In France the opposite is beeing proved. Since most people do not own a "standard" MP3 player (with WMA - DRM support) but an IPod then the only way for online music seller (other than ITune) is to propose non protected contents. And that's what's happening now !
    Apple's DRM has been ruled illegal in Norway: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01...gal_in_norway/
    The biggest problem with all those DRM stuff is the big lobby work of the MI in politics! Many governments passed very suspect bills for the MI. IMHO the MI only wants to secure there old profits. They do not react on the digital revolution properly. They do sue their customers instead of bringing them new services.
    You know, after thinking about it, I reckon the best chance of controlling the media industry lies not with Microsoft or Apple, but with governments. France and Norway are showing the way; unfortunately most of these multinational media companies are based in US, as are the software companies producing our OSs, and its a known fact that the media industries are 'in bed' with the government there.


    Actually, CD's are more and more becomming "regualr" again.
    EMI was the first company to unilaterally copy protect all it's CD line. they did this a long time ago - before 2000 from memory.
    Last year they decided not to and in a very un-announced way removed copy protection from all their CD's
    I don't think I've ever come across a music disc that I haven't been able to rip, even if it had the copy-controlled logo on it (thank god for the SHIFT key, and the older CD players not able to handle the new CP stuff). Nonetheless, that's good news.


    We had a similar thing here in Oz. One of our tv networks began making old episodes of TV shows available for download on their site. Unfortunately it was only a crap show that no-one ever watched (McCloud's Daughter's for you Aussies), the download episode cost $5, could only be watched once and would automatically expire after a week. The initiative was a huge flop (wonder why?) and now I don't think they offer this any more, probably blaming the "dumb" end users.
    Channel Ten's experimenting with this again, first with Bigpond TV and their new Tripping Over show, and they've stated that they'll be pushing further into this area. I reckon they'd be more successful purely because they target the 18-30 demographic, and it is these people who drive tech adoption. That said, it'll still have to be easy enough to do for it to work. Speaking of which, Bigpond just got a heap of their services built into Vista's Media Center, so it'll be interesting to see how that goes.


    First off samuel, let me again apologize for accidentally messing with your previous post ;(
    No probs. In fact, if it weren't for your forum post and the heap of post edit PMs I got, I wouldn't have noticed. Are the post edit PMs a new feature of the forum btw?


    They would have a pretty hard time of it. If you want to be *really* certain that uncompressed video/audio isnt captured you need to force certified drivers and have an encrypted audio/video path, that is hard to do unless you are microsoft.
    I think it would be very hard to make the PC 'secure' enough without microsofts support, so the only real option the media companies would have would be to either make a less secure implementation with bugs that would make consumers complain to THEM and not microsoft (and which could be easily circumvented, always nice), or they could give up on the PC platform altogether.
    Good point, but I'd hate to think of some more draconian scheme that they'd probably implement if Microsoft didn't do it.

    I'm not sure if they'd know to point the finger at the media industry though - if you ask me, taking the rootkit thing as an example, if Mark Russovich (from memory - sorry if I got the name wrong) didn't expose Sony, when hackers started using that to hide other malicious programs, consumers would simply think that its Microsoft's software stuffing up again. After all, we've all had to live with Windows doing funny things for ages.

    It's very unlikely they'd give up on the PC platform - they're finally smart enough to know its the next frontier. They're just trying to mould it so it fits their existing business model, rather than evolving their business model to fit the platform.


    Because watermarking is a pretty good at keeping pe.ople from re-distributing what they buy, WITHOUT any hassle for the end user
    I dunno, its probably just personal opinion and media exposure, but I never really though of the media industry as considerate and caring when it comes to consumers.


    Not sure what you mean by easy here, are you referring to implementing it or breaking it?
    Easier to use, sorry about the ambiguity.


    Good question There are some online stores that have a limited selection in watermarked (and otherwise DRM-free) MP3 files. In addition to them i also purchased alot from AllOfMP3.com while it was still legal here in Denmark. Otherwise i can borrow music at the library, both as CDs and DRM-ridden WMA files(which is luckily easily removed). Apart from that i already have a large CD collection and feel that most new music is pretty crappy

    As for DVD's, i have only boycott'ed buying them, i still rent DVDs.
    Lol, no BT? Ripping music from CDs borrowed from the library is still illegal (where I live anyway). But you have an upside that the new generation don't have - you don't like new music. And there are others who prefer unsigned bands - good on them.

    About DVDs - sometimes I don't understand why people buy so many. Who really watches all their movies more than once? And is it that much of an inconvenience to go rent them from the video store? Anyway, that's irrelevant to this discussion here. Will you rent HDDVDs and BluRay discs?


    How long do you think it will take until we have HD-DVD playback under Linux? Im guessing this year.
    Illegally of course for the poor people in US, and Australia I think, among others.


    For me the biggest problem with DRM is that it is no longer just copy protection, but it limits what we can do with the music and films we buy.
    Ditto. We're no longer buying music with the rights we were used to with CDs, yet the new rights are confusing and very restrictive with the possibilities our tech we have today allows.

    I personally think the best thing the music industry has done for the PC platform is allow subscriptions where users can access the entire music catalog, albeit with DRM. Still, the ability to access that many songs is great and never was possible before (unless you had bottomless pockets). We don't have it down under though... :(

    Sam
    p.s. I haven't been bothered putting in smilies, but please note that I'm not trying or intending to offend or personally attack here - just trying to add to the discussion.
     

    ziphnor

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  • August 4, 2005
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    Hmm... my latest response has magically disappeared.

    (I'm 99% sure I submitted the post and saw it here before.)
    This time it wasnt me honest! :) I cant see any signs of deleted posts in this thread btw.

    Anyway, I can't be bothered rewriting it again - the gist of it was that governments have a big role to play in defining DRM and stopping it from encroaching on consumer rights.
    We can agree there, but its always difficult to 'fight' companies that have bigger budget than an entire country ;)

    They could always think up a more draconian scheme, and get some money-hungry developers to implement it. Microsoft would ultimately foot the problem because when issues arise (like BSODs, crashes, slowness etc.), it won't be evident that its 3rd-party DRM. After all, we've all had to deal with insecure, buggy Microsoft software for so long its natural to point the finger at them.
    But in order to have a protected media path you need to know that you can trust drivers to not capture the unprotected video/audio, this is only possible with signed/certified drivers. If they implemented it themselves it would be THEM having to convince all the video card and sound card hardware manufacturers to make drivers that were certified(and i bet they couldnt agree on one certificate, so you would need to be signed for both bluray and HD-DVD seperatly), and all users would have to install kernel level code from the the media companies. Additionally they wouldnt be able to use DirectShow or anything similar, it would be a nightmare for them, trust me. Microsoft has done all the hard work, and since people are used to getting drivers certified by Microsoft most hardware manufacturers will follow suit.

    About where you get your music - isn't ripping library CDs illegal over there? AFAIK it is in Australia, but then again, you guys seem to have much nicer consumer-focused laws.
    I dont remember the law regarding copy-protected CD's, but unprotected CDs can of course be copied without legal issues. Anything else is complete madness, and would mean i would have to buy all my music again just to play it on my MP3 player. Are you SURE its not allowed in australia??

    Are you going to rent HDDVDs or Blu-Ray discs then? Or are you not going to watch HD movies at all...
    The only HD movies i will be watching are those broadcast over my cable TV. HD is overrated in my opinion, resolution doesnt mean *that* much for video quality.

    Illegally for a lot of the world of course.
    The US for sure with their DMCA or whatever its called, but im not sure about Denmark, there are conflicting political signals on that one. Besides like most users, i frankly dont give a damn if its illegal or not. I think youll have a hard time convincing the guy on the street thats there is anything 'bad' about circumventing DRM in order to be able to watch a video you paid for, and therefore the law will only make it a bit hard to distribute the programs to circumvent it(just like DeCSS).
     

    samuel337

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    August 25, 2004
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    This time it wasnt me honest! I cant see any deleted posts in this thread btw.
    lol, I didn't get a Post Deleted PM either...something's fishy. Anyway, thanks to flipger the original post is back up. :)

    But in order to have a protected media path you need to know that you can trust drivers to not capture the unprotected video/audio, this is only possible with signed/certified drivers. If they implemented it themselves it would be THEM having to convince all the video card and sound card hardware manufacturers to make drivers that were certified, and all users would have to install kernel level code from the the media companies. Additionally they wouldnt be able to use DirectShow or anything similar, it would be a nightmare for them, trust me. Microsoft has done all the hard work, and since people are used to getting drivers certified by Microsoft most hardware manufacturers will follow suit.
    Alright, I see your point. I guess MS had to compromise seeing as we're all going digital with our music and movies, and they wanted to be part of that (e.g. Zune, Xbox 360 Video Marketplace, WMA stores etc.). Question is, did Microsoft need the media industry more than the media industry needed Microsoft?

    I dont remember the law regarding copy-protected CD's, but unprotected CDs can of course be copied without legal issues. Anything else is complete madness, and would mean i would have to buy all my music again just to play it on my MP3 player. Are you SURE its not allowed in australia??
    IANAL, but in Australia I'm pretty sure you have to own the CD to be able to rip it etc. (in fact, ripping was illegal until recently, but that's another story). I don't own the CD when I borrow it from the library - there's a label they stick on the CD telling you that. Applies to protected or non-protected, unless your specifically allowed otherwise.

    The US for sure with their DMCA or whatever its called, but im not sure about Denmark, there are conflicting political signals on that one. Besides like most users, i frankly dont give a damn if its illegal or not. I think youll have a hard time convincing the guy on the street thats there is anything 'bad' about circumventing DRM in order to be able to watch a video you paid for, and therefore the law will only make it a bit hard to distribute the programs to circumvent it(just like DeCSS).
    And making it harder they are. That's one of the biggest stumbling blocks with Linux at the moment - I have to trudge through forums to find out how to install a codec to play my MP3 collection (the next ubuntu is much nicer though). I'm potentially treated as a criminal in the process...but that'll only scare off those who are new I guess.

    You guys probably don't have DMCA equivalent laws there... probably why the Scandinavian countries are so much more technological progressive than the rest of the world. That's one of the reasons why I've always wanted to visit the Scandinavian countries, in particular Sweden (no offence ;) ).

    Sam
     

    ziphnor

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  • August 4, 2005
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    Question is, did Microsoft need the media industry more than the media industry needed Microsoft?
    And that is exactly where we seem to disagree. In truth its hard to tell, and i can see MS's reasoning for acting as they did, but i still believe that they do not need the media industry as much as you think, microsoft is pretty strong(near-monopoly on OS), and the media giants, while big, are dinosaurs, creating quite a desperate mess trying not to become extinct. I believe MS could have pushed them around, at least just a bit. But we can keep discussing that forever ;)

    IANAL, but in Australia I'm pretty sure you have to own the CD to be able to rip it etc. (in fact, ripping was illegal until recently, but that's another story). I don't own the CD when I borrow it from the library - there's a label they stick on the CD telling you that. Applies to protected or non-protected, unless your specifically allowed otherwise.
    You also have to own the CD in Denmark, or at least delete the ripped files when you return it :)

    And making it harder they are. That's one of the biggest stumbling blocks with Linux at the moment - I have to trudge through forums to find out how to install a codec to play my MP3 collection (the next ubuntu is much nicer though). I'm potentially treated as a criminal in the process...but that'll only scare off those who are new I guess.
    True enough, though lately getting something like DVD playback under Linux is merely the matter of installing a single package which is usually available without too much fuss, just with a a simple warning.

    You guys probably don't have DMCA equivalent laws there... probably why the Scandinavian countries are so much more technological progressive than the rest of the world.
    I think the correct way of putting it is 'not yet'. In EU in general it seems the whole debate goes from one extreme to the next each day. I believe france within a few months were debating both extremely harsh punishment for you everyday piracy and making it legal the next :)

    That's one of the reasons why I've always wanted to visit the Scandinavian countries, in particular Sweden (no offence ;) ).
    None taken :) However note that its much harder to buy anything alcoholic in Sweden, thats why Denmark is full of drunk swedes ....
     

    samuel337

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    August 25, 2004
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    Melbourne, Australia
    But we can keep discussing that forever
    Yep, I think we'll agree to disagree.

    You also have to own the CD in Denmark, or at least delete the ripped files when you return it
    That's what the recycle bin's for - I did push the delete button right? ;)

    I think the correct way of putting it is 'not yet'. In EU in general it seems the whole debate goes from one extreme to the next each day. I believe france within a few months were debating both extremely harsh punishment for you everyday piracy and making it legal the next
    At least there's debate on both sides, though the laws could get quite messy if its both legal and illegal to pirate lol.

    None taken However note that its much harder to buy anything alcoholic in Sweden, thats why Denmark is full of drunk swedes ....
    Hmm... thanks for that tip - I'll keep it in mind when I plan my trip :)

    Sam
     

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