Vista and content protection (DRM) | Page 6

Discussion in 'OffTopic' started by James, December 30, 2006.

  1. ziphnor
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    ziphnor Retired Team Member

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    And i would like to help change their mind :) I guess im just not as resigned as you are regarding these guys, i believe they can be pushed into avoiding DRM by boycotting and lobbying.

    I mostly agree, but they did not have to make it that easy for the content providers. In general i feel microsoft, while somewhat innovative, have been spending too much time lately programming limitations instead of features.

    I have a hard time seeing anyone implementing a protected media path with certified drivers in Linux. In Denmark and other Scandinavian countries there is a strong political push towards ensuring things are not locked to a single platform or device. Just look at the iTunes mess for example(illegal in Norway now, and being sued elsewhere), so they might be forced to enable playback on Linux without the 'proctected media path' in place in the long term. Apart from that, during the whole DeCSS thing it was legal to break the protection on DVDs here in Denmark in order to play it back on Linux. This might have changed, but if it hasnt then im sure upcoming cracks of the HD-DVD DRM for linux will be distributable without legal issues.

    Then it shouldnt be such a big deal not to support it :) I think the HD-DVD is already a dinosaur, and it is very vulnerable. If you started getting stories in the press about microsoft saying they wouldnt want to support this archaic crap, then the content providers might get nervous. Besides, its not like MS would lose customers, i dont think anyone would change from Windows -> Mac just to play HD-DVDs.



    Well, i guess there is two approaches to this. One is being resigned about it and accept it, the other is to fight back, which is what i prefer. I simply dont buy DVDs/CDs and i can ensure you i will never buy a HD-DVD or Bluray disc (unless its a writable one for backup :). I also donate money to groups that try to prevent DRM.

    Its already on the way as people have mentioned already. I would suggest visiting http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/ once in a while. They have a series of articles explaining the HD-DVD protections, and i believe they also discuss exactly how many/what combination of keys are needed to break the whole system. At least for HDCP they argue that it can actually be broken reasonably fast with a bruteforce method, and if you break that you can trick a HD-DVD player into delivering the uncompressed video to an untrusted device which can then capture it. Of course this is not the easiest way to do it, but im sure the on-disc encryption will follow suit.
     
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  3. ziphnor
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    ziphnor Retired Team Member

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  4. samuel337

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    Hmm... my latest response has magically disappeared.

    (I'm 99% sure I submitted the post and saw it here before.)

    Anyway, I can't be bothered rewriting it again - the gist of it was that governments have a big role to play in defining DRM and stopping it from encroaching on consumer rights.

    Marcusb:
    About downloading DRM-ed TV shows, Ten's trying it now with Tripping Over on Bigpond's TV service. They've also got some more online initiatives coming up. Bigpond's also gotten their media services on to Vista's Media Center too, so that could work better.

    ziphnor:
    They could always think up a more draconian scheme, and get some money-hungry developers to implement it. Microsoft would ultimately foot the problem because when issues arise (like BSODs, crashes, slowness etc.), it won't be evident that its 3rd-party DRM. After all, we've all had to deal with insecure, buggy Microsoft software for so long its natural to point the finger at them.

    About where you get your music - isn't ripping library CDs illegal over there? AFAIK it is in Australia, but then again, you guys seem to have much nicer consumer-focused laws.

    Are you going to rent HDDVDs or Blu-Ray discs then? Or are you not going to watch HD movies at all...

    Illegally for a lot of the world of course.

    Sam
     
  5. FlipGer
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    FlipGer Retired Team Member

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    Hi,

    yeah, Samuel. I also wondered where your post has vanished. Got it via email notification.

    Post from Samuel:

    You know, after thinking about it, I reckon the best chance of controlling the media industry lies not with Microsoft or Apple, but with governments. France and Norway are showing the way; unfortunately most of these multinational media companies are based in US, as are the software companies producing our OSs, and its a known fact that the media industries are 'in bed' with the government there.


    I don't think I've ever come across a music disc that I haven't been able to rip, even if it had the copy-controlled logo on it (thank god for the SHIFT key, and the older CD players not able to handle the new CP stuff). Nonetheless, that's good news.


    Channel Ten's experimenting with this again, first with Bigpond TV and their new Tripping Over show, and they've stated that they'll be pushing further into this area. I reckon they'd be more successful purely because they target the 18-30 demographic, and it is these people who drive tech adoption. That said, it'll still have to be easy enough to do for it to work. Speaking of which, Bigpond just got a heap of their services built into Vista's Media Center, so it'll be interesting to see how that goes.


    No probs. In fact, if it weren't for your forum post and the heap of post edit PMs I got, I wouldn't have noticed. Are the post edit PMs a new feature of the forum btw?


    Good point, but I'd hate to think of some more draconian scheme that they'd probably implement if Microsoft didn't do it.

    I'm not sure if they'd know to point the finger at the media industry though - if you ask me, taking the rootkit thing as an example, if Mark Russovich (from memory - sorry if I got the name wrong) didn't expose Sony, when hackers started using that to hide other malicious programs, consumers would simply think that its Microsoft's software stuffing up again. After all, we've all had to live with Windows doing funny things for ages.

    It's very unlikely they'd give up on the PC platform - they're finally smart enough to know its the next frontier. They're just trying to mould it so it fits their existing business model, rather than evolving their business model to fit the platform.


    I dunno, its probably just personal opinion and media exposure, but I never really though of the media industry as considerate and caring when it comes to consumers.


    Easier to use, sorry about the ambiguity.


    Lol, no BT? Ripping music from CDs borrowed from the library is still illegal (where I live anyway). But you have an upside that the new generation don't have - you don't like new music. And there are others who prefer unsigned bands - good on them.

    About DVDs - sometimes I don't understand why people buy so many. Who really watches all their movies more than once? And is it that much of an inconvenience to go rent them from the video store? Anyway, that's irrelevant to this discussion here. Will you rent HDDVDs and BluRay discs?


    Illegally of course for the poor people in US, and Australia I think, among others.


    Ditto. We're no longer buying music with the rights we were used to with CDs, yet the new rights are confusing and very restrictive with the possibilities our tech we have today allows.

    I personally think the best thing the music industry has done for the PC platform is allow subscriptions where users can access the entire music catalog, albeit with DRM. Still, the ability to access that many songs is great and never was possible before (unless you had bottomless pockets). We don't have it down under though... :(

    Sam
    p.s. I haven't been bothered putting in smilies, but please note that I'm not trying or intending to offend or personally attack here - just trying to add to the discussion.
     
  6. ziphnor
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    ziphnor Retired Team Member

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    This time it wasnt me honest! :) I cant see any signs of deleted posts in this thread btw.

    We can agree there, but its always difficult to 'fight' companies that have bigger budget than an entire country ;)

    But in order to have a protected media path you need to know that you can trust drivers to not capture the unprotected video/audio, this is only possible with signed/certified drivers. If they implemented it themselves it would be THEM having to convince all the video card and sound card hardware manufacturers to make drivers that were certified(and i bet they couldnt agree on one certificate, so you would need to be signed for both bluray and HD-DVD seperatly), and all users would have to install kernel level code from the the media companies. Additionally they wouldnt be able to use DirectShow or anything similar, it would be a nightmare for them, trust me. Microsoft has done all the hard work, and since people are used to getting drivers certified by Microsoft most hardware manufacturers will follow suit.

    I dont remember the law regarding copy-protected CD's, but unprotected CDs can of course be copied without legal issues. Anything else is complete madness, and would mean i would have to buy all my music again just to play it on my MP3 player. Are you SURE its not allowed in australia??

    The only HD movies i will be watching are those broadcast over my cable TV. HD is overrated in my opinion, resolution doesnt mean *that* much for video quality.

    The US for sure with their DMCA or whatever its called, but im not sure about Denmark, there are conflicting political signals on that one. Besides like most users, i frankly dont give a damn if its illegal or not. I think youll have a hard time convincing the guy on the street thats there is anything 'bad' about circumventing DRM in order to be able to watch a video you paid for, and therefore the law will only make it a bit hard to distribute the programs to circumvent it(just like DeCSS).
     
  7. samuel337

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    lol, I didn't get a Post Deleted PM either...something's fishy. Anyway, thanks to flipger the original post is back up. :)

    Alright, I see your point. I guess MS had to compromise seeing as we're all going digital with our music and movies, and they wanted to be part of that (e.g. Zune, Xbox 360 Video Marketplace, WMA stores etc.). Question is, did Microsoft need the media industry more than the media industry needed Microsoft?

    IANAL, but in Australia I'm pretty sure you have to own the CD to be able to rip it etc. (in fact, ripping was illegal until recently, but that's another story). I don't own the CD when I borrow it from the library - there's a label they stick on the CD telling you that. Applies to protected or non-protected, unless your specifically allowed otherwise.

    And making it harder they are. That's one of the biggest stumbling blocks with Linux at the moment - I have to trudge through forums to find out how to install a codec to play my MP3 collection (the next ubuntu is much nicer though). I'm potentially treated as a criminal in the process...but that'll only scare off those who are new I guess.

    You guys probably don't have DMCA equivalent laws there... probably why the Scandinavian countries are so much more technological progressive than the rest of the world. That's one of the reasons why I've always wanted to visit the Scandinavian countries, in particular Sweden (no offence ;) ).

    Sam
     
  8. ziphnor
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    ziphnor Retired Team Member

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    And that is exactly where we seem to disagree. In truth its hard to tell, and i can see MS's reasoning for acting as they did, but i still believe that they do not need the media industry as much as you think, microsoft is pretty strong(near-monopoly on OS), and the media giants, while big, are dinosaurs, creating quite a desperate mess trying not to become extinct. I believe MS could have pushed them around, at least just a bit. But we can keep discussing that forever ;)

    You also have to own the CD in Denmark, or at least delete the ripped files when you return it :)

    True enough, though lately getting something like DVD playback under Linux is merely the matter of installing a single package which is usually available without too much fuss, just with a a simple warning.

    I think the correct way of putting it is 'not yet'. In EU in general it seems the whole debate goes from one extreme to the next each day. I believe france within a few months were debating both extremely harsh punishment for you everyday piracy and making it legal the next :)

    None taken :) However note that its much harder to buy anything alcoholic in Sweden, thats why Denmark is full of drunk swedes ....
     
  9. samuel337

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    Yep, I think we'll agree to disagree.

    That's what the recycle bin's for - I did push the delete button right? ;)

    At least there's debate on both sides, though the laws could get quite messy if its both legal and illegal to pirate lol.

    Hmm... thanks for that tip - I'll keep it in mind when I plan my trip :)

    Sam
     
  10. CHli

    CHli Portal Pro

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    Steve Jobs read my message lol

    http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/
     
  11. ziphnor
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    ziphnor Retired Team Member

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