Vista and content protection (DRM) (1 Viewer)

Frodo

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  • April 22, 2004
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    In the end nobody likes DRM and everybody wants to play HD-DVD on any PC with any player (opensource or not)

    Sadly this is (legally) not possible. The copyright holders (producers, movie industry) want to protect their core assets in every way possible.
    This is especially true for HD stuff. A HD-DVD movie is a 1-1 copy of the original movie they shoot. They will do anything to prevent the situation that in a few years HD-DVD's are copied just as easy as every now does with warez and software

    Offcourse nobody likes this DRM. And yes its sad that many people won't be able to play HD-DVD (since their entire system is not HD-DVD compliant) even if they have expensive HD tv's

    Is Microsoft/Vista to blame for this? i think not.. When other operating systems (like linux/macosx) are going to support HD-DVD playback they will need to add the exact same DRM functionality to their platform since its a requirement from the movie industry.

    Should/Could Microsoft popose to this? I dont think they stand any chance
    The number of (standalone) HD-DVD players is perhaps 1000x higher then the number of pc's used to watch HD-DVD. Even today most people watch DVDs on a standalone player instead of using Windows (or linux or macosx)

    This means that microsoft, although a very big company, is not going to impress the movie industry if they would have opposed to the DRM stuff.
    DRM is here and its going to stay, whether we, microsoft or anybody else likes it.

    But who knows... perhaps some genius guy comes along and hacks the HD-DVD DRM so everyone can playback their HD-DVD's on any machine..

    Frodo
     

    James

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  • May 6, 2005
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    For me the biggest problem with DRM is that it is no longer just copy protection, but it limits what we can do with the music and films we buy.

    Staying with the HD example: If I have a PC with a full HD screen (1080p), I may not be able to play HD-DVDs or Bluray disks in full res or at all. Depending on what is decided by the media company, because most PC monitors do not support HDCP.
     

    knutinh

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    September 4, 2005
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    Sadly this is (legally) not possible. The copyright holders (producers, movie industry) want to protect their core assets in every way possible.
    This is especially true for HD stuff. A HD-DVD movie is a 1-1 copy of the original movie they shoot.
    This is not correct. Digital cinemas ( http://www.dcimovies.com/ ) will feature so-called "4k" movies with approx. 8 megapixel for every frame, full chroma-resolution, 12-bit amplitude resolution, and very low-compression jpeg2000-motion featuring wavelet-compression. This standard also allows 48fps (although at "2k" resolution only). They will also feature lossless 48-channel uncompressed 24bit/192kHz audio.

    Studios may film their movie in anything from consumer DV-cam up to super-high-fidelity equipment, but I am quite assured that they will assure that the movie theaters always have the edge on home-equipment.
    They will do anything to prevent the situation that in a few years HD-DVD's are copied just as easy as every now does with warez and software

    Offcourse nobody likes this DRM. And yes its sad that many people won't be able to play HD-DVD (since their entire system is not HD-DVD compliant) even if they have expensive HD tv's

    Is Microsoft/Vista to blame for this? i think not.. When other operating systems (like linux/macosx) are going to support HD-DVD playback they will need to add the exact same DRM functionality to their platform since its a requirement from the movie industry.
    I agree that the content providers crave for DRM. But who is it that gains from proprietary DRM? Apple are the ones who benefit the most from DRM in iTunes/iPod. I will bet a lot that the main reason why Microsoft is sleeping with the DRM-proposers is that they see the upcoming competition from opener, free software. Their solution is (as always), "embrace and proprietarize", but this time they also can hide behind stupid politicians that allow things like the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act".

    Face it, as long as M$ persues content owners into using their (good and free) tools for distributing content with DRM, they have a very good toold for ensuring that users have to purchase their software in 2030 when I want to listen to a music file or read a federal document.
    But who knows... perhaps some genius guy comes along and hacks the HD-DVD DRM so everyone can playback their HD-DVD's on any machine..
    Have a google for muslix64 on doom9 forum. He has made a java implementation of the HD-DVD and BluRay decryption routine, and clever people have found that major PC-based players expose the necessary key in clear view in memory when playing the title. Voila.

    DRM never "work" the way that security people claim (stopping hackers and pirates). IT works only by making it difficult enough that casual users dont copy any media. And in many (most?) cases, those people are actually allowed by law to make personal copies, or copies for their close friends. So the content industry are actually in practical terms avoiding legal rights of citizens!

    On the positive side, I have read several stories about music companies that are facing realities lately and are considering selling music in plain mp3. Why? Because users simply refuse to purchase DRM-crap. That is the power of boycott. Having to liva as I preach, I started purchasing DVD-A the minute the format was "cracked". I have never uploaded or downloaded such content, but I want to be sure that I can do as I want with it.

    -k
     

    James

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    I agree that the content providers crave for DRM. But who is it that gains from proprietary DRM? Apple are the ones who benefit the most from DRM in iTunes/iPod. I will bet a lot that the main reason why Microsoft is sleeping with the DRM-proposers is that they see the upcoming competition from opener, free software. Their solution is (as always), "embrace and proprietarize", but this time they also can hide behind stupid politicians that allow things like the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act".
    Apple's DRM has been ruled illegal in Norway: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/24/apple_drm_illegal_in_norway/
     

    tourettes

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    Have a google for muslix64 on doom9 forum. He has made a java implementation of the HD-DVD and BluRay decryption routine, and clever people have found that major PC-based players expose the necessary key in clear view in memory when playing the title. Voila.

    DRM never "work" the way that security people claim (stopping hackers and pirates). IT works only by making it difficult enough that casual users dont copy any media. And in many (most?) cases, those people are actually allowed by law to make personal copies, or copies for their close friends. So the content industry are actually in practical terms avoiding legal rights of citizens!
    The protection itself is not cracked (HD-DVD nor Blue-Ray) only some specific keys have been now stolen and those keys can be used to decrypt the specific movie titles. As soon as movie industry decides all the new movie titles will be encoded with a different keys and those players that were used to "crack" the content aren't able to decode new movie titles.
     

    knutinh

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    September 4, 2005
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    Have a google for muslix64 on doom9 forum. He has made a java implementation of the HD-DVD and BluRay decryption routine, and clever people have found that major PC-based players expose the necessary key in clear view in memory when playing the title. Voila.

    DRM never "work" the way that security people claim (stopping hackers and pirates). IT works only by making it difficult enough that casual users dont copy any media. And in many (most?) cases, those people are actually allowed by law to make personal copies, or copies for their close friends. So the content industry are actually in practical terms avoiding legal rights of citizens!
    The protection itself is not cracked (HD-DVD nor Blue-Ray) only some specific keys have been now stolen and those keys can be used to decrypt the specific movie titles. As soon as movie industry decides all the new movie titles will be encoded with a different keys and those players that were used to "crack" the content aren't able to decode new movie titles.
    I didnt claim that it was cracked? The point is that the released titles was unlocked very easily - a weeks work according to the author for writing the decrypter and finding the keys in PC software. After that he did the same for BluRay in 24 hours without access to a unit!

    My point is that now these guys are eagerly waiting to do the next big feat. I imagine that it will be:
    1. Fetching the keys from a stand-alone player (those keys can never be revoced without serious law suits).

    2. Also, lets remember that the "secure" HDMI connection is a joke, anyone can buy a signal "booster" that just happens to output HDMI as HDCP-less DVI.

    And Microsoft, the well-known security company is releasing an OS that supposedly will keep users/hackers from doing nasty stuff. The company loved by every hacker, cracker and whats its called all over the world?

    The sad thing is that DVD is selling like hotcakes, even though it is leaking all over the net. People actually buy movies even though they could download them from the net. Compare this to the DVD-A/SACD situation. Both very secure products that consumers refuser to purchase, even with very limited pirated material available.

    Could it actually be that customers (especially the early-adopters like us) prefer simple, good-quality media that can be used everywhere without any big-brother stuff, and that the pleasure of owning the nice printed disk with a nice printed cover as well as supporting those content producers that we think well of is a better mechanism for getting our money than treating us like criminals? Looking at my considerable (expensive) stack of CDs and DVDs, I am tempted to say "yes".

    -k
     

    Paranoid Delusion

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  • June 13, 2005
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    boycot vista and there will be none of this, the name vista alone makes me sick
    Fortunately everything moves forward with time and VISTA will in a year, be very commonplace.

    DRM is already here, but it would not break my heart to be able to turn it OFF.
     

    FlipGer

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    Hi,

    personally I do agree with frodo. Microsoft is not the one to blame for supporting DRM. Its the movie- and music-industry (MI). They told hard- and software manufacturers: "We will only deliver HD content, if you do this, this, this and ohh that."

    We could blame the manufacturer for letting them be blackmailed. But that's capitalism. Its also a problem that some content providers also provide the hardware (Sony/BMG). So they said, ok we are doing what the MI wants. They implemented those stupid unnecessary things like HDMI, copy protection and DRM.

    But I have the hope they did it only halfhearted. Remember the Region-Code thing for DVDs? Also a wish of the MI. What happend to it? It can be turned off in most cases, often even on standalone players with "hidden service menus". ;)

    As knutinh said, there are already hardware solutions to circumvent HDMI on the market. Every "copy protection" will be cracked sooner or later. Afaik some experts said, that the implementation of HDMI encryption was done very bad.

    The biggest problem with all those DRM stuff is the big lobby work of the MI in politics! Many governments passed very suspect bills for the MI. IMHO the MI only wants to secure there old profits. They do not react on the digital revolution properly. They do sue their customers instead of bringing them new services. :(

    <dreaming>
    Instead of putting "copy protection" on audio cds (even trojans, like Sony), they could add all tracks as 320Kbit (watermarked) MP3 on the cd. Man, this would be a great addition, worth the money. I would not have to break laws, if I want to hear my legally buyed cd on my MP3 player.
    </dreaming>

    Someone asked where to get music:
    http://www.jamendo.com/
    100% legally free (Creative Commons Licence)! MP3 or OGG over BT. You can directly donate to the musicians if you like their music. No MI in between grabbing 90% of the invested money. :)

    Flip.
     

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